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CHANGE
FOR CHURCHES?
Subject: Change_Is_Good_for_Churches-News31
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001
From: padre
Change is
the only thing that never changes. We all change, but we all resist
change. My baby daughter is getting married - I'm not sure I like
that change. My hair is leaving me - I don't like that change.
But I can't stop it. There is a better word for change when it
comes to Churches - Transformation. It is not semantics. It is
the root. Change says something is coming I cannot get a handle
on, much less control. Transformation is seeing with new eyes.
Encourage people to look beyond what they see to what they can
create. Give people a vision that they can create side-by-side
with God and they will embrace change. Tell them they HAVE to
change and the Church will put up its walls fight until it kills
itself. PEACE and JOY!
padre
Response:
You are so right. Thanks. -David
QUESTION
Subject: Newsletter_31
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:47:06 -0600
From: Peter
How does
your movie Lord of the rings draw people with no understanding
of Gods love and salvation, When people are told the author is
a christian?
Response:
In itself it does not. But the themes are there for great one
on one and group discussion. -David
LOVE
ALL
Subject: Change_Is_Good_for_Churches-News31
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001
From: TFTD
" We have
nothing to fear, but fear itself " ( W. Churchill ) The challenge
for Christians is not to agree or disagree but to love ALL, in
spite of what we may all agree or disagree with . . . of course
this is not very likely . . . ergo
Revelation shall come to pass,exactly as it is written!
LUV 2 ALL >
Response:
Amen! -David
MYTH
VS REALITY
Subject: JRR_Tolkien_ is_Right_On
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001
From: TFTD
Why is the
magical Harry Potter so popular? What does it mean that it's
Presbyterian Christian author has become the first billionare-author
in history?
All fantasies
and myths are popular, it has been that way since the beginning
of time, it is a way of experiencing something more than our everyday
hum-drum existance, and is the building blocks of reality. As
far as anyone becoming a billionaire . . . it has nothing to do
with anything except creating a saleable product ( tons of successful
info-mercials on the media). (It's more than
marketing. The same markering groups have duds, too. -David)
Why is Lord
of the Rings, a fairy tale, considered the finest book of the
20th century by literary scholars? What was the shift from just
20 years ago when no scholar would admit to enjoying it?
I'm not sure
what literary scholars your talking about, the Bible is still
considered the finest book of any century, and some even believe
that Shakespeare had a hand in writing the King James version.
(The King James and Shakespeare were not written
in the 20th century. And the Bible is always the best seller.
You are right. -David) Any book on dealing with witchcraft
or the power of evil has been taboo by the church, there has been
a progressive move toward liberalism in the world and even within
the church. A perfect example would be the election of the Clintons
as a representative as an icon of what we are! (Are
you against LOTR and CS Lewis? And what about the election of
Bush? Is liberal religion the same as liberal politics? I think
you are mixing apples and oranges. -David)
Why did
movie critics give the Lord of the Rings a whooping record high
96% thumbs up rating? And why did this fairy-story set the largest
December weekend opening ever? **
Simply put
it's a great movie, the quality of movies, thanks to the computer
generated effects, is phenominal. The flying scene in Harry Potter
was completely believable. All myth movies have also been popular,
they are still showing Jason and the Argonaughts, The Illiad and
The Oddesy, and there is also a renewed excitement and interest
in myths regarding the Bible and religion in general . . There
need not be any "Read Into" suggestions, it's simply entertaining!
(There is more going on here than mere entertainment.
LOTR hits an inner chord with people. -David)
Why has
the highly mythical Star Wars captured the current generation
as it has? **
Same reason
Why are
Christians generally considered out of the loop? **
That's utter
nonsense, Christians are as big a movie goer ( and sinners ) as
anyone . . . maybe even more so! . . .Who is the one who considers
them out of the loop anyway? (I did not have
reference to movie going. I meant it in terms of the culture.
I was at a debate at a university recently and the mention of
Chiristianity brought laughs from the students. This is a post-Christian
era. Only 2% or less attend church in Europe. And America's percent
is beginning to slide. -David)
Welcome
to the Post Modern (Post Christian) Era. **
There is no
Post Modern (Post Christian) Era. !!! . . . There are those within
the church that spread paranoia, and panic . . . what they doing
is wrong! " My command to you is, Love one another as I have love
you!" ( Jesus) . . . What's scary is they are no better than Osama
bin Ladin and are fanatically mislead. There has been more abuse
on mankind in the name of God than anything else . . . Christianity
needs to get back to it's roots. (Are you saying
that those of us who recognize that our culture is changing are
"no better than Osama bin Ladin and are fanatically mislead"?
Well, what can I say to you? I suggest you walk across a high
school campus and listen to the current generation, Or, attend
a discussion group at a university. Talk with local trashers -skate
boarders. Or tune into MTV. Our culture has changed. BIG TIME.
-David)
MYTH
GOOD OR BAD?
Subject: Myth_Is_Good_Newsletter_31
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001
From: TFTD
Don't know
why you have a "Good" and "Bad" newsletter . . .nothing is completely
good or bad . . . face it, if there was nothing good about bad,
nobody would participate in it! (So True -David)
Myth is the
same as faith . . . and faith is the belief in something unproven.
They both exist in a realm of those who choose to believe in what
ever that is. Religion means to be tied to or bound by, and has
little to do with faith or myth, it is a set of rules and traditions
that a group of people decide to abide by, there are many religions
and none are all bad or good . . .( That's why there are so many
of them!) There is also no such thing as a Post Modern era . .
that would be the end of time, and time is eternal. (There
is a Post Modern time just like there was the Industrial Revolution,
and the Enlightenment. Take a walk out side. Look around. Talk
with those in their twenties and teens. -David)
There is a
continuum of events and history that will continue until the end
of time . . .what ever that may mean! Any of it, or all of it
only relates to each other as a whole . . it is like a thread
in the fabric of Life. The whole is equal to the sum of its parts,
not the whole is equal to any one part. This dispells the theory
that we are God, . . . God is the whole, we are only the parts.
I was taught that God created everything from nothing, I no longer
believe that . . .He created everything form Himself. Everything
that reproduces in this world, does so by division ( not buy sexual
intersourse ), one cell dives into two . . . those two divide
into four . .those four divide into eight and so on . . . and
so on. That is the way every living thing reproduces. What makes
the difference between them is a thing we have now only begun
to undersrand, and that is DNA. What DNA is, for all intensive
purposes, is a script . . the real question is "Who wrote the
script" each cell has from the beginning of time had the potential
to become anything it wanted to, that is to say, it is silly for
"Evolution", no creature has had to evolve into another, only
adapt to its environment to survive. The intelligence that wrote
that script is at a magnitude that probably is incomprehensible
to almost everyone . . . unless you " Come to me, as a child"
of course and have no preconceived notions or beliefs.
Unfortunately
religion is repressive and controling, and sets us at odd against
one another. The funny part is that all religions are rooted in
Love . . but we do not profess it in Love . . there lies the problem.
We do not seek to agree but disagree in finding the Truth, the
Way and the Light. People do not go to the Bible to find the truth,
but go to fing truth that agrees with trheir own personal truth
. .and when they fing it, they slam the book closed and say "Aha!,
I was right !" and go about their rest of their life in self-rightousness.
Religion,
of course has the highest ideals, they feel that if they can control
you and your life you will not sin and everything will be all
right . . .Historically this has never been proven to be true.
More harm has been done to mankind and the world in the name of
religion . . and even worse Christianity has been given only one
command from the Christ " My command to you is this, love one
another as I have loved you!" and that would be " Uncompromising,Unconditional
Love . .and if Yeshua / Jesus was truly the "Word of God, made
man" then that is the command straight from God Himself . . .
It doesn't get any simpler than that !
LUV 2 ALL >
( just another fish in the C . . .hrist)
I
WEEP
Subject: Newsletter_31
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001
From: Chris
Hi there.
I've only scanned your site, and already I have to write in to
say "thank you." I guess that I'm a postmodern Christian - have
been for years - but I have not really known what to call it,
and I waver between what I believe, and the guilt of my evangelical
past. It's a difficult and lonely life. I don't feel at home in
the church I grew up in, and there is a real tension between me
and my family.
Anyway, sorry
to dump a sad story on you uninvited, but I just about wept when
I saw your site, and recognized a like mind. Are there more of
you out there? Where do I find other postmodern Christians? Keep
up the good work, dude .
Chris
P.S. - your newsletter re: Tolkien and the LOR rocks
Response:
Yes I think there are many believers just like the two of us out
there. Someone suggested we start a Forum. What do you think?
Should we? -David
CNANGE
FOR THE SAKE OF THE KIDS
Subject: Change Is Good for the Church
Newsletter_31
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001
From: Laura
I have to
agree. I am the youth group Sunday school teacher for a small
Anglican church in central British Columbia. I struggle to make
church and the bible relevant (and comforting) to my youth. I
did find a resource that uses clips of modern movies to teach.
But I agree, we have to make church, ( or some form of associating
with other god-believers), and learning about faith, an integral
part of our kids' lives.
Response:
Thank you for your love and concern for teaching children about
Jesus. -David
MYTH
Subject: Myth_Is_Good_Newsletter_31
Myth.
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: KevinKunz@webtv.net (KEVIN KUNZ) To: _E-mail
CC: keithwk@webtv.net
Myths and/or
stories, can be used to teach. Even JESUS! used stories/parables
to teach. I believe that is a good way to teach, in a way we can
understand. I.E. Santa Claus is use to teach childeren about Christmas.!
Peace;<><:
Kevin.
http://community.webtv.net/KevinKunz/JESUSTHEWAY
Response:
Amen! -David
HP,
LOTR AND ENGLISH LIT 101
Subject: Harry Potter, Lord
of the Rings
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001
From: Tom Orr:
David: An
interesting and lively dialogue on these tales. I won't add a
lot right now except to say that Tolkien and Rowling fall squarely
into a long and honorable English story-telling tradition dating
back to Malory, Spenser, and Shakespeare, in which sorcery, magic,
and enchantment serve as metaphors of the quest for knowledge
and power, which, of course, is at the heart of the greatest story
ever told in the New Testament. William Blake said, "Imagination
is the divine body of Christ." These are tales of imagination,
not manuals on witchcraft. May the saints preserve us from book-burners
and the soothsayers of ignorance. David, God bless you in your
good work through hollywoodjesus.com.
Grace and peace.
--Tom Orr
Response:
You are so right. Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them.
-David
SO
WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST?
Subject: Change_Is_Good_for_Churches-
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: Jeff Couch
I've heard
a lot of people say the same things you say, but no one seems
to know how. There is nothing I would rather do than to work in
my church to reach other Gen Xers and younger. I am 30 years old
and am usually very involved in my church. So what do you suggest?
How do we take the movie myths and make them relevant on a Sunday
morning? How do we bring back the mystical while teaching the
Bible? What are your concrete suggestions?
I subscribe
to this site because I believe in the power of media. I am an
amateur actor and would like to see media work in the local church.
Most plays I see in churches are simply tolerated because they
are productions by our church family. Or they are big overdone
productions to draw the boomers and their parents. Christian movies
are rarely any better. Where is our voice? Who speaks for the
Lord? Where is the voice of Jeremiah? Elijah and the others. Where
is the poetry and music of David and Solomon? Today we only recycle
their style we don't update for our era, we don't make it relevant
to our times. Have you seen Bibleman? Carman's movies? What does
it take? How do we become relevant? I would love your input.
Because I
want to make a difference,
Jeff Couch
Response:
Rev. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa had the right
idea some 35 years ago. He was of the WW2 generation (Builders).
It was thought at the time that Hippies were of the devil (bear
feet, beards, long hair, peace signs, rock music). He thought
differently. You do not need to be in a suit and tie to attend
church. He went out and met the Hippies where they were and invited
them in for Bible study (a Bible rap). He welcomed thier casual
clothes and their music (which later became Maranatha music).
Calvary Chapel became the fastest growing church in the Western
World! Chuck Smith simply allowed a new generation place. He had
no preconceived ideas of what would take place. He just allowed
a new generation to have place. And it happened. Today Boomer
churches pattern themselves off the Calvary Chapel model, which
is 35 years old and designed for the Boomer generation. These
are the Boomer churches which are the predominate form today.
Just
5 years ago there was a huge battle in Evangelical and mainstream
churches for "Contemporary" worship music over the traditional
organ hymns. "Contemporary" music won. Today most Evangelical
churches (and many mainstream) have geared up to reach the Boomer
generation (Gotta reach "Saddleback Sam"). A Southern
Baptist Boomer worship service is exactly like an Assembly of
God Boomer service is exactly like a Calvary Chapel Boomer service.
No distinctions, no creative differences. A long opening of "Contemporary"
music (Worship His Majesty -type songs) where the greatest spiritual
value is in how long you can stand with the appearance of worshipping.
Perhaps followed by announcements. Followed by a 45 minute expository
or thematic message from the Bible. The irony is that the Boomer
Generation is no longer responding to this style. To put it bluntly
churches today are stuck in a Hippie model.
We
need to go back to the example set 35 years ago and allow the
younger generation place. And let the Holy Spirit do the rest
-just as Church Smith did. It needs to happen with every generation.
Each generation needs to pass it on to the next. The problem is
that the standard form of worship (which is now "contemporary")
becomes sacred and untouchable. Church members view this as nonnegotiable.
I
would suggest that churches begin to encourage an outward focus.
Instead of throwing rocks at the world and preaching against it
(isolationism), "go ye into all the world." Meet people
where they are. Allow their culture, music and images to worship
God. In short be a missionary. -David
WHERE
IS THE REFERENCE
Subject: Images_and_Post_Modern
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: J
You wrote
in your letter that: C.S. Lewis points out, "We must not be nervous
about 'parallels' and 'Pagan Christs' they ought to be there -it
would be a stumbling block if they weren't. We must welcome them
not, in false spirituality, withhold our imaginative welcome."
I was wondering which of his writings you are quoting from.
-J
Response:
CS Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics,
ed. Walter Hooper (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1970, p. 66-67
-David
ENJOY
NEWSLETTER
Subject: Newsletter #31
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: Glen
My wife and
I thoroughly enjoy reading the newsletters. We will keep reading.
Keep up the good work and thoughtful dialogue with your detractors.
We have relatives that we just can't understand on some of these
same issues. I have shown them your web site and hope that it
can open some thoughtful exchanges with more light that the usual
heat.
Warmly, Glen
Response:
Thanks -David
Subject: Re:
[newsletter] Hollywood Newsletter #31 -Tolien and Lewis
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001
From: Helen
David,
May God bless you richly in all wisdom. May He give you clear
insight into the way He desires to communicate at this present
time. At a Catholic mass Christmas morning - it was said, "unbelievers
rock the cradle; others let the cradle rock the world." I think
you are in the latter group. It is unfortuniate that so many of
us Christians think that "THE" way to be effective for Christ
is inside the church. Thank you for raising your voice with distinction
and passion.
Merry Christmas - Helen
Response:
Wow, Helen, you made my day. -David
THE
ONLY WAY TO EXPRESS THE DEEPEST REALITIES
Subject: Myth_Is_Good_Newsletter_31
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: "Robert Askren"
Greetings
and Blessings for the New Year! Poetry and Myth are the only way
we humans have to express the deepest meanings and realities in
our experience. Truth is expressed in story form so that everyone
may experience the meaning in a personal way and at different
levels of understanding.
Warmly in the Lord,
The Rev. Robert D. Askren
Response:
Yes, now if we could only bring it into the church at large. I
wish I could attend one of your services. -David
LOOKING
FOR A PICTURE BIBLE
Subject: Images_and_Post_Modern
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: Sue
I was fortunate
enough to visit Europe for the first time about five years ago.
It was a wonderful trip for many reasons but one of them was all
the wonderful artwork in the churches and museums there. I loved
seeing all the paintings depicting events from the Bible. They
truly enhanced my imagination of the stories heard for so many
years and contruibuted to increased awe and worship of our mighty
God. I then began searching for an art book that had the entire
Bible represented with the paintings of the great artists. Now
I know that there are so many paintings by so many artisits of
Bible events that it would be impossible to put them all in a
book but to my surprise I could not find ONE book with such a
theme. Recently I did stumble across a book at the public library
"The Bible and its Painters" by Bruce Bernard but when I went
to purchase it (thru amazon) I discovered it was no longer published.
Honestly, I cannot believe that every Christian bookstore does
not stock this book or one like it. I considered reporting the
book lost to the library and gladly paying the monies (comments
on the ethics of this are welcome) but a friend has found a place
where I can order the book so hopefully I can hold onto that shred
of my integrity. Not sure how all this plays into the discussion
at hand but it does seem the evangelical church has little regard
for the arts and art history and is missing out on a great feast
and opportunity to feed the soul!
Response:
It is interesting how Bible are beginning to have illustrations
again. Certain Study Bibles have little icons to check mark various
literary notes. However, a Bible that truly honored the arts is
not happening ...yet. I have a hope like yours. -David
POST
MODERN CULTURE
Subject: Newsletter_31
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: J C
Hey David,
All I can say is for individuals to have a relationship with JESUS
as the center, not SELF nor DOCTRINES nor CHURCH nor CHRISTIANS.
When you follow Jesus and KNOW Him, He will lead you in a direction
that is usually not the one the church is taking, I'm sorry to
say. The Holy Spirit may lead you to screenwriting, directing,
art, music...whatever, that isn't considered "Christian"...however,
He may lead you to reveal a message through symbolism, dialogue,
visual art w/ moving pictures...WHATEVER He wants. Jesus came
to seek and save the lost, not to judge....although the church
thinks they are better than Jesus since they've taken it among
themselves to judge. God will speak to humanity however He wants
to, and I for one have stopped trying to please the church. Everytime
you try to please "Christians" you will more than likely be wasting
your time not doing what Jesus wants you to do. You look around
and see Christians preaching to the choir and entertaining themselves
w/religious "stuff"....Jesus isn't concerned with entertaining
Christians, He is concerned with drawing humanity unto Himself.
I told you awhile back how He lead me to write...and it's not
"religious". God has given me gifts that I see things very visual,
and He utilizes this in my writing..through symbolism, 3 dimensional
characters and dialogue. This is secondary....He wants to use
me in other ways, but art is a tool He said He was going to use
to "place me/access" to an environment He wants to use me further.
Just do what Jesus has called you to do and not focus so much
on what the "church" thinks...you will wear yourself out. As long
as you know you are doing what He has asked you to do, you'll
be okay. Fellowship w/likeminded people if you have to.
In Him,
J C
Response:
Thank you for thinking. Thank you for being out side the box.
-David
LITTLE
THINGS & LITTLE MEN
Subject: Myth_Is_Good_Newsletter_31
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: Jakob
Hi, I think
that it's okay to relate to the truths of or belief in Christ
through a story like christmas or through a story like "Lord of
the Rings", but I also think that these should be pointers to
and reminders of our relationship with God. In themselves they
are very little.
I watched
"Lord of the Rings" today and walked away from the cinema with
a very positive feeling. A feeling of hope. The characters in
the film meets the same challenge as we do: Hoping and believing
in the true and good and acting on it, even though we feel disempowered
when facing evil, discovering that it's often "little things"
or "little men" that makes a change for the good.
:-) Jakob
Response:
Praise God for Tolien. -David
MYTH
IS THE ONLY THING FOR FAITH
Subject: Myth_Is_Good_Newsletter_31
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001
From: "Jon-Carl Lewis"
God is too
big to comprehend without myth. I realized this in my Church (Episcopalian)
last night when we did the whole salvation story reading scriptures
from Genesis to John 1. Its a beautiful myth and very, very true.
Thanks for asking.
Jon-Carl Lewis
jcl@swcp.com
www.incarnatus.org/jcl
Response:
So true -David
COMMENTS
ON CHANGE AND DIVORCE
Subject: Change_Is_Good_for_Churches-News31
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001
From: "Stu Prevost"
I feel that
it is important for our churches to change. I am from a local
United Church in eastern Ontario in Canada. The population of
our church is a majority of seniors. I have tried to work with
the church board to bring about change but have hit many roadblocks.
They are afraid of change because it will offend and may turn
away some of our senior members who have the money to give. My
teenaged children refuse to go to church... they feel there is
nothing there for them. They believe in God and are grateful for
all He has given us. They feel that our church does not praise
God. They are the next generation of church goers and do not want
to be there. They have attended other churches (an hour away)
and feel there is a feeling of 'God' there. I believe it comes
from the people they are with in the 'other' church and how they
feel about praising God. This other church is United as well.
I do worry about the future of the church I used to attend regularly
- it is dying off and seems to not want to change the trend.....
there is a big interest in money.... they are always crying about
the lack of funds. My solution is to make the church a place for
people to be - an inviting place for 'the unchurched' and money
will become a minor problem - bring in the people and everything
else will be fine.....BTW I stopped going after an appealwas made
to the congregation... it seemed to me and others - the request
was give more now and up your weekly contribution or do not come
through the door.... I did express this concern to the ministers.
Divorce...
my theory...we have been brought up as a generation that replaces
things that do not work. Our computer is not fast enough.... buy
a new one (or upgrade the parts), our watch stops working....
throw it out, buy a new one. Same with almost everything we own....
replace it with a newer, better model. I feel tat this is the
way we have begun to think of marriage.... this spouse is not
living up to my expectations.... time to move on and get a new
model. A throw away society means we can do this with all things.....
I even know parents who have thrown out their older children and
started new families...... BTW - MAy 14 I celebrate 20 years of
Marriage to my first choice for wife.... I plan on keeping this
model for a long, long time.....
Stu Prevost
THE
RIGHTNESS OF CS LEWIS ETC
Subject: JRR_Tolkien_.is_Right_On
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001
From: "Laury Morrison"
Yes I do.
CS Lewis was one of the best writers of the last Century. God
primarily wrote the Bible as a story. Good stories communicate
god's themes because this is His world and everybody writing story
whether they believe in him or not will somewhere in their story
bring out truth. E.g. the movie E.T was a wonderful picture of
the resurrection, or going "home" to heaven. It was produced by
a Jew - Spielberg.
Laury Morrison
SOME
GENERAL THOUGHTS
Subject: Newsletter_31
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001
From: RICK
I got online
today, after having spent a truly blessed Christmas eve with family
and friends at a meal, then at church, and we exchanged some simple
gifts.
I then had
a relaxing Christmas Day itself, which included going to see Lord
of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring.
I have read
the books twice, and intend to read them again. But I wanted to
see this first movie before rereading.
The movie
was absolutely incredible and moving. There is a great deal of
power in the story and the movie.
It amazes
me that there are Christians who just mouth (repeat) what they
hear, what they are told, and do not learn about what is being
talked about. A Christian who never heard of Lewis, one of the
greatest apologists for Christianity in the 20th century? Someone
who didn't know that Tolkien and Lewis were both Christian, with
STRONG Christian foundations in their fiction?
Come on, people,
read your Bible as a whole piece of work, and then READ WHAT YOU
ARE CRITICIZING, as a whole piece of work, to see what the point
is, and judge from there.
As far as
the piece on change.....I have had very ambivalent feelings there....there
are times when change is needed in order to be relevant, but at
the same time, tradition is meaningful to many.
I don't feel
comfortable with change just for the sake of change, nor do I
think we should necessarily keep a tradition, just because "it
has always been done that way."
Faith and
reason must work together, I think, to help us walk this delicate
line.
Humbly yours in Christ,
Rick Bavera
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