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AMERICA
FROM A NEW ZEALAND OF VIEW
Subject: Newsletter_29_Revising.John_3_16
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001
From: Norman
I would like
to say as a non American in general I agree with what you say.
I am a Christian and I live in New Zealand. You will find it on
a map east of Australia.
I have not
read or heard anyone in NZ say that the US got what it deserved
but myself like a lot of others cannot see why the US was so blind
that they could not see the hatred many countries have towards
the US because of its incredibly nationalistic policies which
assume that the US is always right and that they are Gods official
agents in the world.
Here a fundamental
tenant of Christianity is that we should love our neighbours as
ourselves. That we should treat people like we would want to people
to treat us. This idea seems to be unknown in the US and this
causes great amazement here that a country where an extremely
high percentage of people go to church that this commandment of
Christ is ignored or at best watered down.
The comments
by your President on the Kyoto agreement incensed many people
outside the US. He said that he would not sign any document the
disadvantaged US business. This was very selfish. When Regan was
in power the US was the only country in the world not to sign
the Marine Resources treaty. Why? Because it would disadvantage
US business.
The US uses
something like a third of the worlds energy. How do Americans
justify that?
Madeline Albright
described the deaths of an estimated half-a-million Iraqi children
as a result of Western (US led) sanctions as a 'price worth paying'.
Neither the Government or leader of Iraq has changed their policies
so why punish people who cannot change anything?
For years
the US has backed dictators because it was claimed that they would
give a country stability. With stability would come better trading
conditions for US business. People who opposed these dictators
were branded communists. The US trains and uses terrorists all
over the world. Are the people they kill worth any less to God
than US citizens? What is special about American citizens?
The US does
not seem to have faced up to the fact that they trained the Taliban
and that as recently as May this year they received a large financial
grant from the US.
Where is or
was she Christian outrage at the US supplying biological weapons
during the Iran-Iraq war?
NZ has had
bad relationships with the US for many years as a result of our
non-nuclear policy. Should this happen in a democracy? Why are
Australian and NZ farmers practically forbidden to export meat
to the US inspite of the World Trade Organisation policy that
such restrictions are illegal?
The US while
claiming to be a Christian country shows little evidence of being
so unless there is something in it for themselves. Blaming God
for what happens is a way of letting the US not face up to the
real issues which I believe are not religious at all but examples
of human greed and selfishness. Of dismissing the views of others
as of no consequence.
Norman
Response:
Thank you Norman. I really appreciate your insights. We in the
US are often short sighted. So thanks again for your insight.
-David
DOOMSDAY
CHRISTIANS ARE SPOILED BRATS
Subject: Newsletter_29 _Feedup_with_Dooms_Day_Predictions
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: I Utley
I thought
your words about the WTC tragedy and the Fundamentalist Christian
response were apropos. John 3:17 clearly states that God did not
send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the
world through Him might be saved. Christians have twisted God's
message and now promote a message that describes God as this cosmic
bully who beats you into submission to Him through judgment, tragedy
and pain. That's bullshit.
Most importantly,
Christians forget a fundamental message in scripture. God does
not discipline those who are not His children. Hebrews chapter
12 says:
5: And have
you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor
lose courage when you are punished by him. 6: For the Lord disciplines
him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
7: It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating
you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not
discipline? 8: If you are left without discipline, in which
all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and
not sons. 9: Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline
us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject
to the Father of spirits and live? 10: For they disciplined
us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us
for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11: For the moment
all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it
yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have
been trained by it. 12: Therefore lift your drooping hands and
strengthen your weak knees, 13: and make straight paths for
your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint
but rather be healed. 14: Strive for peace with all men, and
for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Consider the
lack of logic in what some Christians teach. They are like a bunch
of little whiny kids mad about the fact that their friends get
away with stuff that they get spanked for. It is like whining
to your father about spanking you for stealing and replying "My
best friend from next door Bobby steals and you don't spank him!"
His natural response, as is God's, "Bobby is not my child. But
you are. My children do not steal. I see to that."
The sad thing
is, all the while, Bobby is looking at the relationship you have
with your Dad and longing for a father who would love him enough
to teach him right from wrong and discipline him to help him know
the boundaries and become a better person as well as protect him
from the evil in the world. Even sadder, you have been adopted
by your loving father and you know that if Bobby knew enough to
just ask, your loving father would adopt him too. Yet sadder,
your father encourages you to let Bobby know that if he wants,
he can be adopted too, but you are so stuck on yourself that you
see to it that you never mention it or all you do is talk about
how your father is such a strict disciplinarian but you never
mention the unconditional love he has to offer.
Christians
are so f**king spoiled and selfish!
--I Utley
Response:
I like your relational analogy. Very good. -David
THANKS
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: "Mike Furches"
David, I receive
numerous newsletters and many I just delete. Yours I read from
cover to cover or from top to bottom. Again you make me smile,
laugh, cry, and pray. I thank you for your courage to stand for
truth and dignity. Can't say for sure but I betcha that the Lord
is pleased a great deal with your work. Keep it up and keep on
sharing the truth. Feel free to use if you want on the newsletter
site.
God Bless & Thanks for helping keep me focused.
Mike Furches
Response:
Thanks Mike, I always appreciat you. -David
GOD'S
BUISNESS
Subject: Newsletter_29 Feed up
with Doom_Day Predictions
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Kevin
We should
let God do Gods business. ( ie. Dooms Day.)
Kevin
http://community.webtv.net/KevinKunz/JESUSTHEWAY
A
FUNDAMENTALIST SPEAKS
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Dave
Hi David.
A friend just forwarded your newsletter to me and I just wanted
to say a few things in response.
I do consider
myself to be a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, and I take
no shame in that. I believe that moniker says I believe in the
fundamental purity and infallibility of God's word, the bible.
I don't believe
that Osama Bin Laden is a fundamentalist Muslim. I believe he
is a rogue muslim, and has bastardized the religion in the same
ways a David Koresh, a Jim Jones, or even the KKK does or has
done.
I do believe
we are called to tolerate people, but not to tolerate all that
people do. Tolerance has been co-opted as a catch phrase to paint
those with a different moral stand as intolerant, hateful people.
God calls us to love everyone, but hate sin, or to put it a different
way, be intolerant of sin. I must acknowledge I am a sinner and
cut the rest of us sinners some slack, but it in no way does that
mean I should embrace other's sin as being acceptable, or having
an 'I'm ok - you're ok' attitude.
Is this the
message of the first portion of your newsletter? Please clarify
for me if possible. As for Hollywood censoring itself, well that's
a little curious. I am privy to some of the editorial decisions
we are making with our movies, but more intimate with how we're
changing our publicity of our movies and how the MPAA and the
networks are forcing a change in the publicity of our movies.
Thank you
for your words. If you have time for some clarity then I would
appreciate it.
Sincerely, Dave Theriault
Response:
"Love the sinner and not the sin" is a good motto. I
like tough love. And yes Bin Lauden is off track and dose not
represent the Isalmic view -thank God. -David
COMING
EVENTS
Subject: Newsletter_29_Hollywood_Censoring_Hollywood
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001
From: Teresa
David I can
see both sides. I dont want to seem like one of those people who
straddle the fence. While I agree that we are a great nation,
it was Billy Graham himself who said " If God doesnt judge America
soon, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." We live
in a country of untold freedom, but we've been afforded that freedom
from having a relationship with God. How can we expect to reap
the benefits of his love, but disobey his commandments. It's not
just America under judgement, it's the whole world. America is
just in the spotlight right now, but if you look around you, who's
hands are clean? All have sinned and come short of the glory of
God. I'm not trying to spread gloom and doom, but the rapture
is a real event that will happen and the battle of Armegeddon
is a real event that will happen. There are events that will proceed
that battle and we may be living in that time that sees these
events come to pass. I watched "The Seige" recently. That movie,
although made more than 3 years ago, was so prophetic, it was
eerie, I actually thought of you as I was watching it. I will
check out your review of it later, but I wanted to let you know
how I felt. I enjoy your website and you are doing a good work,
but the bible is clear about the fate of this world. Yes, God
wins in the end, but all the in between is not pretty. Keep up
the good work. thank you and God bless you.
Teresa Bourn
Response:
I wish I had reviewed The Seige. -David
JOHN
3:16
Subject: Newsletter_29 Revising
John 3:16
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Kevin
BLASPHEME
Kevin
HJ
RECENT ISSUE
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001
From: "Tracy Simmons"
YOU ROCK!!!
thanks for saying it out loud.
- Rev. Tracy Simmons
Anchorage, AK
FALWELL
AND OTHER COMMENTS
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001
From: Price
Mr. Bruce,
I don't agree with Falwell. I thought his words were extremely
harsh. Indeed, I would say if there is any blame to be laid on
anyone other than the terrorists, it's actually to be laid on
Christians. It's certainly not anyone else's fault but our own
that people don't have Jesus as Lord of their lives. How should
I expect them to be saved if they have not heard the Gospel?
And now,
for your comments toward love.
Yes, everyone
who's ever read the Bible would concur. "God is Love!" Well amen!
However, some
people, in their quest to evangelize the touchy-feely let's-not-judge-others
world, have completely forgotten what else God is.
He is a JUDGE
as well.
Are these
events a definite act of judgement? You know what, God only knows,
and I say leave it up to Him to say. But, just as one should not
say "This is God's judgement, arrrh, we're all gonna dieeee, lesbians
and baby-killers first," one should ALSO not say, "God will not
judge us this way, and anyone who says He will should go stuff
their face in a toilet. And since God is Love, by George, let's
all band together and listen to that annoying 'Smile on Your Brother'
song! Yeehawwww, start the hoedown."
Maybe this
is the beginning of the end. Maybe this is when God pulls the
plug and removes the lamp stand from us because we have left our
first Love. When we have become neither hot nor cold but just
lukewarm, when He will spew us from His mouth and say, "By George,
what was that? I was expecting hot water in this cold winter of
a world, but what did I get? I got cruddy lukewarm. Who put snow
in My hot water?!"
***Disclaimer***
Slight exaggeration of all statements involved. ***Disclaimer***
But I'm sure
that a learned man such as yourself sees that He has no real reason
to spare anyone. I'm sure you've read, as I have many times, "For
since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly
seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal
power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although
they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful,
but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts
were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed
the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible
man--and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things. Therefore
God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts,
to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth
of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather
than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason
God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged
the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the
men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust
for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and
receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,
God gave them over to a debased mind, to do these things which
are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual
immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy,
murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors
of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy,
unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous
judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy
of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice
them." Romans 1:20-32.
Just as with
Solomon, when he left the covenant he made with God, and worshiped
other gods, therefore God had no reason to keep up His end of
the bargain, and was no longer bound to blessing Solomon's descendants
forevermore.
If we don't
keep our end of the bargain, God has no reason to hold up His
end of it, and by golly, I'd say He's got every right to do whatever
the smeg He feels like. And if He wants to, if He decides to change
His mind, and do things not according to the Bible, more power
to Him, it's His prerogative.
But you know
He won't. He's too good for that.
Oh how I hope
He takes us away. I rather do hope this is the end.
You know,
for too long we have allowed ourselves to be tainted by the world,
when the Bible says, "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye
holy: for I am the LORD your God. And ye shall keep my statutes
therefore, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you." Leviticus
20:7-8. As well: "But as he which hath called you is holy, so
be ye holy in all manner of conversation. Because it is written,
Be ye holy: for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16. This leads us not
only to Leviticus 11:44, where God speaks of not defiling our
bodies with unclean creatures, but also to Leviticus 11:45, where
He reminds us of when He brought us out of Egypt, not only literal
to the Hebrews of this period but also figurative to modern Christians
as well, for Egypt symbolizes the world around us. It says: "For
I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to
be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." As well,
Leviticus 19:2: "Speak unto all the congregation of the children
of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy, for I the LORD
your God am holy."
He states
repeatedly throughout the Bible, "Be ye holy! Set apart, sanctified,
for Me, for I am your God, I am Jehovah Elohiym, the Self-Existent,
Eternal, and Supreme God. I am the Self-Existing and Eternal One
Who brought you out to be your Supreme God."
I love movies.
My favorite is Frequency. No better
story of the redeeming (I hesitate to use the word "redemption")
of the lives of a father and son. And the fact that it routinely
involves baseball and the World Series surely doesn't hurt. (Gotta
have that baseball.) But some movies, movies I've loved, are just
filled with the most awful language, the most terribly sinful
situations. That's not holy. I admit it: I bring judgement down
on myself: I've not been holy in my thinking, more than once.
Twice maybe? Okay, three times, but no more.
That's a joke.
And sometimes,
Mr. Bruce, sometimes it just doesn't pay to go see a movie where
maybe there are nice parallels betwixt Christian life and the
movie. Sometimes, I'd say it's a coincidence. When the parallels
and allegorical twistings get all muddied up with horrid language
and stupid nudey scenes and impure things, we align ourselves
therefore with the world and GASP may I say it? Is it allowed
in this tolerant world to say the word? The devil.
I apologize
if anything I've said angers you. That's not my intention, I only
wish as your sister in Christ to gently correct you on some matters.
Okay, now I've rambled and groused, so here you go, I'm pushing
send. And I don't care if you publish this on your site or not.
But if you do, just block out my email address.
Thanks.
Response:
You are welcome. I appreciate the time you took to respond and
post your thoughts. -David
TIMELY
WORDS
Subject: Newsletter_29 Revising_John_3_16
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001
From: Tammy Herring
Thank you
for speaking out about intolerance in the Christian community.
Unfortunately, I was introduced to the Christian faith by a fundamentalist
church I attended as a child. The negative attitudes and focus
on evil, sin, and punishment followed me into adulthood and made
me a very judgmental and unloving "Christian." Only recently (within
the last 5 years) has the true message of Jesus penetrated my
heart and set me free. In the midst of an emotional and spiritual
bankruptcy, I experienced the pure GRACE that Jesus offers, and
I will never be the same again. As followers of Jesus, we need
to also dispense grace and not judgment to a hurting world.
Thank you again for your timely insight.
Response:
You are so right. Thank you for sharing your journey, I appreciate
that. May God continue to bless you. -David
I
AM A CHRISTIAN, BUT...
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Chris Utley
...it's ignorant
views like these that have make me ashamed to call myself a Christian.
i'm sick of so-called Christian leaders and their BS! God is not
pleased with these ignorant comments. yes He allows suffering
and there are times when He does deal with us harshly because
of sin. but the events of 9/11 were one group's act of HATE. we
as Christians are supposed to combat hate by sowing seeds of love
and peace. but instead, these "Christian leaders" are sowing the
same BS hatred that Bin Laden and his followers are showing. and
all in the name of Jesus? i think not. HE said that the world
will know we're His because of OUR LOVE.
To any non-Christian
who reads this message: don't let Falwell and Pat Robertson and
all these people convince you that Christ doesn't love you. He
does. Jesus specializes in taking broken people and making them
whole. He doesn't just heal bodies...He heals broken spirits.
He comforts people who's parents have abandoned them for making
different lifestyle choices. He's a Father to men who's fathers
constantly judge them. He's a mother to those who's mothers are
too preoccupied with "church stuff" to really love them and minister
to them. He loves punk rockers. He loves gangbangers. The world
and church people may call you a slut. He'll love you and restore
you to a radiant woman again. i just want to let you know that
He does love you and it's His pleasure and desire to come into
your heart. and He will teach you who He is and what He wants
you to believe. i know Jesus for myself. the church taught me
a few things but the real stuff that i KNOW about Jesus, He taught
me Himself. and i just want to share that with you. Falwell and
all those guys are judgemental idiots. Jesus is love. let Him
love you.
Chris Utley
Response:
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your words of healing, compassion and
love. There are many who can not understand the love of God because
of the intolerance of certain Christians. I hope many will understand
the depth of feeling behind your words. -David
PRAY!
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Kevin
We should
Pray that The LORD'S will be done!.
- Kevin
AGREE
WITH CHRIS WEIGEL
Subject: Newsletter_29
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Paul H
Hi David
I'd like to briefly say that I agree with Chris Weigel's comments
in reponse to your article. The doomsayers have little to recommend
themselves, and John 3 v 16 is absolutely central to our message
to the world. It's a terrible thing that the gospel has been misrepresented
in this way by Christian fundamentalists. However, I would like
to advise caution about thinking that a nation has no need of
repentance. If God's chosen people in the Old Testament were called
to repentence again and again, then why should America, or the
United Kingdom (where I live), or any other great nation for that
matter, have no such need? I believe that freedom of speech is
a good thing too; but just because intolerant fundamentalists
(Christian or Moslem) are pointing their fingers in the wrong
direction, doesn't mean that we can assume that our nations are
off the hook in living up to the high standards of God's social
justice that Isaiah, Amos, Micah and others preached about incessantly
to Old Testament Israel. I don't believe that our sophisticated
systems of government make our society any less in need of God's
grace and forgiveness than Israel were.
CS Lewis claimed
that "suffering is God's megaphone to a deaf world". Personally,
I struggle with the idea that God would cause suffering for whatever
reason, be that in allowing his wife to die of cancer, or allowing
national tragedy to be brought about by evil men, but I think
he has a point. I gather that part of the reason that this is
a confusing concept to modern minds because of our secularized
understanding of cause and effect. There are passages in the OT
where a tragedy is said to have been brought about by "the enemy"
- i.e. the devil - in one chapter, and by the Lord in the next
- this was not a contradiction in Hebrew thought, since all of
history, good and bad, was interpreted in the light of God's sovereignty.
I was helping
at a camp last summer, and I had asked one of the kids to say
a bit about why he came to camp - he came out with something unexpectedly
profound. He said that his best friend had died in a car accident
a couple of years ago, and so he became a Christian, because he
had 'no-one else to get angry with'. To me, this was an unexpected
testimony to the difficult fact that God chooses to use bad situations,
often involving the suffering of innocent people, for good ends.
Events that might be expected to alienate us from God end up bringing
us closer to him. The Gallup statistics you quoted are very encouraging
for the same reason - I think events like this help people to
realise how much we all need to rely on God. So I think we are
repenting, and I hope and pray that this continues.
A friend of
mine wrote another thoughtful article on the events of Sep 11,
which is worth reading - http://stocki.ni.org/news/items/item-207.phtml
(It's a great website, by the way, quite similar in outlook
to HJ. I can't think of anyone less 'fundamentalist' - I hope
HJ readers would enjoy his site).
Keep up the good work
- God bless Paul H ***
There's no
man so wicked he cannot come home
Nor so good he passes each test
- John Hiatt
Response:
Thanks Paul for your thoughts. I really like the story of the
boy who became a Christian (turned to God) because he had no one
else to be angry with. -David
VERY
GOOD POINT
Subject: Newsletter_29 Revising
John_3_16
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001
From: Philb
I won't be
cancelling my subscription. I think you bring up a very good point.
The intollerance of our well meaning but off base brothers and
sisters needs to be pointed out. How brazen for someone to suppose
that they could announce the Judgement of God Almighty on New
York City. I forget that the rest of our communities are so much
more in tune and in line with the Scriptures. Get a clue Wilkerson.
God is wanting none to perish but all to come to eternal life.
Remember He loved us knowing we'd choose sin. He loves us with
no conditions. It's not "Change your ways first, then I'll love
you." Lucky for me, and all of us.
Response:
Ah the whole concept of Grace (Unmerited favor and love) is wonderful.
-David
Continued
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