Piper [when asked if we should give up strongly held views to "meet in the vanilla middle"]: I think it would be disingenuous and dishonest for anybody to give up their views if they're sincerely held and you're passionate about them. I don't think anyone on this platform is in the position advocating you give up your views, at least I don't hear that. There are strong convictions based on experience, based on reading, based on personal life, based on rationality—

Levine: Based on fear.

Piper: Based on fear. Whatever the case may be, we hold these views passionately. I think the dialogue, the narrative, the conversations—to use words we're comfortable with—lead us toward a goal. If it's not leading us toward a goal, then why in the world are we wasting our time? I get back to my original point, that there is a truth to be found, that is, there is a conclusion at the end of the day. Otherwise we would not have the energy to disagree with one another nor would we want to have a debate. And there's the pre-supposition that we all hold that this is worth our time. As human beings we can engage in a conversation that has an outcome for the good, not for the bad.

Let me make a couple of points on this. One point I'd like to make is that we need to avoid self-refuting claims as we engage one another. "I can't tolerate your intolerance." "I hate you hateful people." "I'm sure nothing is sure." "I know that nothing can be known." "I just can't get along with those people who can't get along." They're self-refuting claims that make no sense. It's like watching a dog chase its tail. It's not healthy conversation to fall back on those silly, silly conclusions.

The other thing is I think we need to stop looking at brokenness to find our definitions. For example, if I want to know what fish are like, I'm going to go down to the beach and I'm going to look around on the beach and see a bunch of fish laying in the sand, gasping for air, with their eyes bulging out and smelling really bad. Now my conclusion may be that fish stink and they're very ugly things, but I forget that that's not where they belong. When we look at the world and we draw our conclusions and we pant caricatures on the basis of brokenness, we're always going to be wrong. If I had any issues with your movie, I would say, look at Christ and stop looking at us idiots who claim to be him. I know that's your point, but I think sometimes if there's someone who has an ax to grind, they can look at the angry red face of the person who is making no attempt whatsoever to follow the teachings of Christ, but yet is claiming to do so. That's nothing but an embarrassment.



Lobdell: When my faith was slipping away, I tried very desperately to grab onto anything that would show that my faith was real—reading the Bible, and prayer groups. One of the things that I did—I thought logically, like Michael's saying, "If Christianity were true there should be some measurable differences between Christians." Because you're in Christ, you have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There should be some measurable difference. And you talk to George Barna, who probably a lot of you know, and he can't find any difference between evangelical Christians and atheists in a whole variety of things. . . . That was huge for me in my fall from faith, that I couldn't find a difference, in general. I'd have taken a two percent difference across the board.

Levine: If anything there might be a tiny, tiny edge in my life—it's pretty much a draw—a little edge maybe to the secular group.

Lobdell: That's what I'm saying. So my wife, who, because of my reporting went from a cradle Catholic to a raging atheist, she spent a month in Africa and she didn't want to go with a Christian group and she went with a secular group. And you see—I think as Christians, I didn't really see this when I was a Christian as much—but there are people who do great works whether they're motivated by Christ or other people. And I wish I had that sort of humility when I was a Christian to see that in this ocean, where there are dead fish on the shore of all stripes, there are also fish swimming that are doing magnificent things for other people.

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