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Walt Ruloff:  Another really exciting thing which we would obviously like to see, in a very— Maybe the movie will have a small part in this, but [to get to a point] where we really have a healthy triad of different disciplines. And what I mean by that is, right now, science is the arbiter of truth.  But, to allow science to have the metaphysical implications for people to explore where they need to go, then you can have the great discipline of philosophy to interpret those implications.  Also, theology; theology then has a place at the table, too, to interpret those implications.   Right now, there is this massive wall that does not allow any of these implications to be discussed, and so again, everything outside of that fortress is deemed irrational and subjective.  And so, I think the great hope and the great implication here, is that by opening this dialogue up, we’ll have actually a much freer society that will be able to openly discuss this, rather than this polarized, and highly confrontational, environment that we’re having right now. 

Ben Stein:  And I think Walt has really put his finger on something incredibly important, which is [that] there’s an awful lot of vagueness in definitions.  People say, “Oh, look; Darwinism is science, Intelligent Design is theology.”  Well, Darwinism is not even a clear science. We have a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant scientist in the movie named Dr. Berlinski who, very aptly, points out the theory of Darwinism is all smoke, and, or largely smoke, and we don’t even know what a species is; and the theory itself is extremely vague, and hard to nail down, and so, it’s not even clear what is science—what is science and what is not science. I mean, if “science” just comes from the word “knowing,” we want to “know” things—even things that cannot be proven in a lab—look, Darwinism can’t be proven in a lab. We’d like to say, “Well, alright, as long as we’re considering things that can’t be proved in a lab, as science, could we consider the possibility that there was [an] intelligent designer?   That can’t be proven in a lab, either; but so many things can’t be proven in a lab. 

Paul Lauer:  But you made reference to the complexity of the cell, and, perhaps, modern scientific discoveries that Darwin himself, and even people 10 or 20 years ago, were not privy to.  What is it about our modern discoveries that are pointing to perhaps a scientific basis for there being a Creator?

Walt Ruloff:  Well, specifically in the area of Random Mutation, the whole foundation of the loco-motive behind evolution is the initial trigger, and that trigger for change; and currently, in current paradigm, that is Random Mutation.  That’s the key area that—what we’ve heard from many, many scientists that we’ve interviewed—that’s the key area in genomics and many other areas that needs to be challenged.  So, where really the “rubber hits the road” is finding that new mechanism, and there’s ample, ample, ample, ample, evidence out there that suggests there are many other mechanisms in this very complex integrated circuitry, which [we] are realizing now is very much part of the cell. 

Paul Lauer:  And you’re saying those mechanisms show some kind of evidence of order or design that seems to be at odds with—

Walt Ruloff:  Well, that’s exactly right.   I mean, if it is just random mutation, or a form of  a mutation that doesn’t have any intelligence behind it—well, therefore, there is no implication and it becomes, it becomes very materialist.   In review.

Ben Stein:  Well, there’s also the— Let’s use the scientists’ science on them, which is if it is, in fact, random mutation,  the idea that—of the many, many elements needed to create life—if they are to organize themselves perfectly to do it, the odds are so large against that happening by random mutation that they are almost incalculable.   So, we say that: say that science will tell us how—how on earth is something in which the odds are trillions to one against it happening, how does that happen? 

Walt Ruloff:  Yeah, we’re sitting at a very exciting time here—because if this really has a very big and practical implication, if  freedom were to be able to enter into this discussion, I’m convinced, coming from the area of technology myself,  that if this open collaboration starts to happen, [it could lead to] vast new discoveries. And there’s already many, many things; so if our listeners could actually go to and look up epigenetics, or orphan genes, or the so-called “junk DNA” that IBM is discovering, [they’d find] whole, very vast motifs as far as other functionality.  So, all of this research needs to be in kind of a collaborative format for us to understand these new mechanisms. 

Paul Lauer:  So, many people argue that a theory like Intelligent Design or any discussion of there being an intelligence or Creator in the origins of life, that doesn’t belong in the science class, it belongs in the philosophy class, the religion class.  What you’re saying is, “No, there are scientific components to this.” 

Ben Stein:  Well, I’m saying, maybe all these classes should not be so clearly separated from one another.  Maybe all of them belong, to a certain extent, together.   When Newton was doing his laws—study of the laws of physics and motion—he said he was trying to understand how God had ordered the Universe and what the work of God had been; he was showing God’s handiwork.  Maybe, when people say they’re working on Intelligent Design, they are just expressing God’s handiwork.  Maybe when the Darwinists are explaining evolution they’re explaining God’s handiwork. I’m a little suspicious of putting everything into neat pigeonholes.

Walt Ruloff:  Right; I think the one thing that Ben and I are both very supportive of is if science is based on sort of empirical work that can be validated through evidence and empirical data.  So, we’re not going against that.  And that is the hallmark, and the basis for science.  But, what comes from that discussion—or the ability to talk about something open—is vital in being able to analyze it and speak openly about something.  I mean, if you find an orange, let’s talk about an orange, let’s not talk about an apple. 

Thanks to Motive Entertainment for providing the transcript of their January 22 teleconference with Ben Stein and Walt Ruloff. The full, unabridged telecon is available from Gotham Conference in podcast form. Expelled is scheduled to release in April.