| THE INTERVIEWS
Actors and director IT IS A VERY PAINFUL SUBJECT
- Bryce Dallas Howard (Grace)
about working with Lars von Trier, her role and personal experiences with racism and her feelings on following up on Nicole Kidman’s Grace:
'Lars is one of my top three favourite filmmakers of all time, and when the audition came up, I was so surprised that I would be the right age or anything else for any of his films. No, actually I was freaking out, because after I saw Breaking the Waves I sort of secretly planned my life to — at some point — follow him and try to get into one of his movies.
I saw Breaking the Waves the first time because I got a tape of it. I was truly obsessed by that movie and watched it, I guess, eighteen to twenty times. Naturally, I was very excited about being able to audition on tape for Manderlay, but I assumed it wasn’t going to go anywhere ... Then, when I heard that I was going to fly to Copenhagen and meet Lars and work with him, just for a couple of hours, it was a situation I never thought I would have a shot at. Not at my age, not this kind of role, ever!'
What was it like meeting Lars von Trier and accepting — and be accepted — for the role as Grace?
'Accepting the role was completely a non-issue. I think he is a genius and I just wanted so much to be a part of it … of his work, of the film. But I was nervous, because I had heard so many rumours about Lars and his style of working and all of that … But you know, I'm so tired of people, who are really nice, but whose work is really crappy, so I thought I would be able to take anything, if my quality of work would be beefed up. As...by the way...are all the actresses who work with him.
And then, to come here [to the studio in Sweden] and be taken care of and nurtured and be met with so tremendous kindness is really almost weird. I wasn't prepared for that. I was prepared for — like: “Okay, I'm not going to feel insecure, not going to worry about anything that goes on. It's just about the work and I'm only going to focus on that. But it has not become only about the work, it has also been about this relationship with a man that's really extraordinary …'
How do you see this Grace, the Grace of Manderlay?
'Well, I don't know. She sort of gets re-invented every single day. At first when I read the script I didn't have an idea of how everything was going to go, I mean, I came here completely zeroed. I had read the script several times, but hadn't really analyzed it. I had this feeling that he was going to create something and I was just going to be as open as I possible could. And now … being five weeks into filming, the Grace Lars has created through me is very … well, her will is very strong. She's extremely determined and also extremely emotional and problems arise when her determination and her emotional life intertwine.
She's fine, she's very successful at being emotional, she's very successful at being determined — though when the two things mix she gets into a lot of trouble. She is also very childlike and very innocent. She's optimistic and has lofty ideas about the way many things should be.
So you have this childlike nature and innocence mixed with a need to be intellectual and on top of things, controlling. She thinks she has a tremendous amount of self-control, which gets her into more trouble. In a way she is sort of … blind and she's desperately trying to use her other senses to get through life, but you know, it's like she keeps not opening her eyes.'
Lars von Trier has said that he anticipates strong reactions from many Americans. He thinks they will hate Manderlay. Did you have any reservations, when you read the script?
'I didn't, not at all. But now that I'm in it, I know that it's a very painful subject. When I read the script at home, I — being a white American — didn't realize how painful it really is. I kind of just looked at it and thought, this is an important story to tell, an important stance to take, but then ... coming here and learning more about slavery and just — even without talking about it — being around all these other actors, you sort of learn how real this problem is.
It hasn't given me any reservations about doing the part, it just have made me feel really uncomfortable as an American who has these really ignorant views on things. So reservations, no, no, no, not at all!
Things need to be changed and I think this is the way to go about it. Nobody listens to politicians anymore, but people watch movies and when they go into a movie theatre, they are not defensive, where as if you listen to politicians you automatically get defensive. Movies are a medium in which people can go about getting messages out and different perspectives out, so I think it is really important.'
The abolition of slavery in America was not followed by equality between the races, but — especially in the south — by segregation and racism. Do you have any personal experiences with racism?
'The first time I understood what racism is, was in Louisiana. A lot of my family is from the South and I was in a car with some of my grandfather's friends. They were great people, they were wonderful and I was staying there and having the best time, and suddenly we were driving past a school and we saw a very young black mother pushing a carriage with her daughter, who with her very light skin obviously had a white father, and then this woman, who I really liked and respected, said: “Ah, that's disgusting!” I was just like: “What?” She said: “To bring mixed babies into this world, to mix the two races, is disgusting. I don't have anything against that young mother, but for her to bring a mixed child into this world, it's not fair, it's cruel, it's ...”
I was so confused. It was really bizarre for me, because I had been raised in an environment where we never even thought about the colour people's skin. It was really surreal, but I ended up having tremendous prejudice against the South. All of a sudden, just because of that moment and that remark, everybody seemed really soiled. And it is still there.
But, you know, as far as racist thoughts of my own, you kind of hope that you don't have them, but ultimately everybody, including myself, has come up with stereotypes for situations, so ... I rarely wander the streets of Harlem [in New York] at 3 a.m. because I make assumptions about that area. I don't — and that is embarrassing — even after doing this film. I hope that I would do it, but I would be nervous and I could excuse myself by saying that it is about the crime rate and not about the colour of people's skin, that live in Harlem, but I mean ... I don't know about the crime rates of different areas. It's just stories that I have heard. I haven't been there.'
The sex scene between Grace and Timothy — do you see it as a love scene or humiliation or even rape?
'Personally, I don't see it as a rape or a love scene. I kind of see it as a catharsis, but technically speaking it is definitely a love-scene. I mean, Grace is definitely conceding, she's really attracted to Timothy, and he is very gentle to her, you know. But for me the scene isn't necessarily about the act, or intercourse even, it is more about her unleashing herself. I mean the fact that she has such tremendous self-control and ability to suppress herself, ultimately, that's the moment where I think she completely becomes out of herself and for the first time is able to see sort of clearly.
Then there is the riot and people die, but just before that, when Timothy and Grace are making love, it's like one tiny moment where there is hope ... Yes, I see it as hope, an extremely hopeful scene, but of course I don't know how it is going to be cut together, and right after that, the hope is shattered.'
Why do you think Timothy covers Grace's face when they have sex?
'I saw it as a kind of Munsi [i.e. tribal African] tradition or something like that, but it could also have been used as a device to allow Grace to be by herself at that moment, as opposed to be with him, and that's how she gets her sort of catharsis, because it is not an act that she is participating in with someone else, it's almost by herself.'
How will you compare this script and movie with Dogville?
'I think this script is much stronger and sort of said it in a really sly way the other day to Lars. We were talking about trilogies and I said: “God, It's funny how the second movie is always the best in a trilogy,” and I think it is true this time, too. Dramatically the film is better. There is more dramatic conflict, more lushness to the story. I think the story is more provocative ...
Dogville is an unbelievable film, it was really startling to watch it, but this is taking what Dogville had, and just building upon it and ... I think the way the story moves here is just grabbing, really intriguing. It is also insightful in the way that Dogville was and provoking in the way that Dogville was.
I think it could be an amazing commercial film. Lars' movie will not be commercial, but they could take this script and make a big epic film out of it, and I don't necessarily feel that that's what Dogville was about. Dogville was individual, it was special to Lars' method, but this ... you know ... I think Manderlay has it all.'
And one last question: Did you have any fear of following up on Nicole Kidman's Grace?
'No not at all. I don't even look at it as even the same character. It is so different and I hope that the actress, who will play Grace in Lars' third film, Washington, realizes how lucky she is.
I know I won't be able to be the Grace in that film, because that is the way it is. He can't do it with me, but honestly I'm thinking about it every single day. It will be a tremendous loss for me, it will be really bad, but I'm already coping with it ... or at least trying to.
One night Lauren [Bacall] mentioned Washington and said that Cate Blanchett should be the third Grace. Lars looked down, and that's a good sign ... That night I wrote about it in my diary, because it pains my heart to think of him, especially to think of him with a different Grace. God that would hurt me and it will happen. It has to. The movie will be made with a different Grace. She'll be different from my Grace as I am different from Nicole's Grace. Knowing that is the only way it is bearable for me."
SLAVERY IS WOVEN DEEP IN THE PSYCHE OF ALL AMERICANS
- Danny Glover (Wilhelm)
about the night he met Lars von Trier's producer Vibeke Windeløv, watched Dogville and — after some problems with the script of Manderlay, because he felt that the story was told from a white perspective — decided to play the part of the old house-slave Wilhelm:
'I got a call from my agent, that they were interested in me doing a part of Lars von Trier's next film, Manderlay. I was in Utah and Vibeke [Windeløv] flew up to Utah from L.A. to talk with me. She arrived around 11 p.m. and we talked for about an hour. She gave me the script and said: “And here's a copy of Dogville!” She lent me her very small DVD; it was the size of ... well, smaller than a computer.
When Vibeke had left the room I started watching Dogville, but then ... about 3.30 in the morning ... the power of the batteries ran out. I was debating with myself on whether I'd call her or whatever to say: “Hey, I need some fresh batteries to finish the movie,” and I ended up calling her at 6 in the morning.
I was really quite moved by Dogville. First of all I was moved by the style and, I think, the risk of doing it, shooting it. I became excited about Lars and his new movie, and the script, I had been given. So I read the script, but immediately I had issues with it.'
What kind of issues?
“I didn't respond to it. When I read a script I try to see myself as a character within the story and also I try to gauge an audience's response, particularly in a story that deals so strongly with the issue of slavery and its aftermath and has very stereotypical characters. Because I had these problems, initially I turned it down. Then, after telling that to Vibeke, I read the script again, because I wanted to find out if I had missed anything but I didn't feel too much different.
I felt that Lars' way of provoking an audience was ... Provoking films can have a major influence on how we see things, but the issue of slavery is woven deep in the psyche, in the subliminal culture and psyche of all Americans, and particularly of those who have been victimised by the system.
My issue, however, was not so much that the script was provocative, which it is. My issue was more that it was told exclusively and entirely from a white perspective and that the images were very strong from that perspective.
And yet I kept thinking about the story; I couldn't leave it; so after a while I accepted the role.And now, in the process of working with Lars, have there been moments that have been sort of revelation for me? Yeah! And I think for all of us there have been these scenes and moments which gave the script another level of intimacy; the same as I saw in Dogville, but didn't register in this script and I hope that my — and the other actors' — involvement can make some significant contribution to the movie.'
Do you think the movie will be considered very anti-American?
“I don't know. Well, yes, I imagine, to some degree. I myself have not yet clearly come to terms with my reservations, but when you've reached the point where Lars is — and I am — it's really not about that any more. There are certain allowances ...
He is a wonderful, capable director. He is not going to fall on his own knife or trip over his own shoestring. And if you buy his concept, if you buy his idea, I think you are going to be better suited to look at his movie. And we know that a lot of the people who are going to see this movie are people who, at least initially, understand Lars as a filmmaker, don't we?'
So now, in the midst of working with him, you do buy his concept?
“Well, whether I'm doing an action film or any other kind of film you have to buy the director's vision. You have to believe in him and his ideas. If you can't do that, stay out of there. But in terms of the choices that you make as an actor, ultimately they are going to be your own choices, because you know, what you want to make.
This film is satirical in a sense and it's hard to follow the narrative in a literal sense, so in fact you have to go on blind faith to some extent. I'm capable of that, because instinctually I think that Lars is trying to do something that is really important. So despite my reservations and despite, that my instincts are coloured by all the things, that happen in life and all the things that have happened to me, I feel that you can only move beyond this very sacred topic by putting it out there.
Will this film provoke people and will it cause discussion? Of course it will. Will it be all good? Perhaps not! Will it all be safe? I'm not sure.
You know on the one hand I think about these things. On the other hand they are never the reason why I do or I don't do something. I think hard about it, yes, but I'm not afraid of the reactions, because I don't live a safe life anyway. So I'm mostly concerned that we treat this very painful subject in the best way possible, because, you know, the subject of slavery is painful for the ones that have been victimised as well as for the ones who have been the victimisers. It's a painful subject to all Americans.
I mean, the whole idea of slavery is a total dehumanisation of black people. It's an emasculation of black men and without any doubt it was a very calculated system. A system that was insidious and perfected: You take some human beings and kill their sense of who they are and then you reduce them, basically, to something just above cattle. No, that's exactly what they were: Cattle!
And still, after the abolition of slavery, America was not ready to welcome Negroes as equal human beings. It still isn't and the way things are going it won't be in a hundred years from now. I feel the humiliation of coloured folks this country has up its sleeve has surpassed all imaginations and even today there are more black men in jail than there are in college. What does that say about this country? It says that we have to construct a whole new ways of looking at slavery and its aftermath and the most embarrassing aspects of racial injustice.
I grew up and lived in San Francisco and therefore I had another existence, but I've been through it as a child, when I visited my grandparent in the rural state of Georgia and when I visited the South in the late fifties and early sixties: Separate housing areas, separate schools, separate doors, separate bathrooms, separate sections of the busses.
It made me quite angry as a young kid. I felt a great deal of anger and as a result of that, I felt some hostility, I remember, with the complacency of my grandparents, not understanding that their mere survival, often, was a very delicate balance between what they could say and what they could do and what they couldn't say or do. I, being young and coming from San Francisco, didn't understand the living conditions for my grandparents, the intricacy of the relationship and the balance.'
There are different ways of reacting to oppression and racism; which way do you support?
"Well, someone once said that struggle was therapeutic, and even though I sometimes feel overwhelmed by what we deal with, it will still be therapeutic. For one I want it to be remembered. I want us to talk about how we can, in whatever small way, do something.
To do something, that's all. I wake up in the morning and I think about, what I want to do in the world. You know, I wake up every morning and whether I'm a fool or whether I'm some sort of dinosaur, living in some other age, I want to get wiser. I read about things, I want to hear about things and I want to talk to my brothers about things. I want us to use each other and create a dialog and even — though we are imperfect — find a way to grow and change and understand a little bit more and feel a little bit more compassion.'
So playing the house-slave Wilhelm in this controversial movie, you feel that you are going out on a limb? "Oh, yeah, I do.' Do you see a hero or a heroine in Manderlay? "I don't think that there are any real heroes in this movie. No, I don't think that at all.'
YOU'RE HAPPY TO BE A FOOL FOR A GENIUS
--Willem Dafoe (Grace's father)
about being confused on the first day of filming and the liberating feeling of giving up control and simply generating material for Lars von Trier, a director you really have to commit to, both as an actor and an audience:
'I, of course, saw Dogville and I am familiar with some of Lars' work, but still it was a strange feeling to come here. There are some things people don't think about, when they talk with actors about movies: acting, performing is not a fixed thing, it's always different and a huge part of interest to me is, when I come to a project, to find out what is required from me and what has to get accomplished for the greater good of the movie. And since this is a quite specific, in a funny way eccentric, way of shooting, it does take a great deal to figure out what is required and I'm not sure, that I have learned it yet, because I'm here such a short time. But these last days I have felt like I settle in a lot more. The first day, I was a little confused, but Lars is so assured, so it was not a crisis of confidence as much as you feel like you are applying yourself as well as you can.”
Do you think it is a question of control?
'Absolutely ... '
Lars von Trier wants you to surrender to him and give up control?
'And I am willing to do that. Because, you know, as long as you give the responsibility to someone else, deeply, as an actor, you still have the deepest control, because you have your imagination.
Lars says: "Look, don't be afraid of anything," and he and more or less tells you not to worry about the lines, not to worry about the blocking, just be there and play the scene. That's my impression anyway. And that's very liberating, very, very liberating. Most people are suspicious of it, because it makes you on the one hand very vulnerable, but on the other hand it gives you great power. You can let go of a certain kind of self-consciousness, but of course it also requires completely trust from your side. You are happy to be a fool, but only happy to be a fool for an artist, a genius. You don't want to be a fool for a fool.'
How did you like Dogville?
'You know, in a funny way I was a little mixed on it. In fact I think the material in Manderlay is more interesting. The content is more interesting. I liked the quality of Dogville, the artificiality next to the very kind of manhood naturalism.
Well, Lars would probably die if he heard me say manhood, but naturalism is a style in itself and since you — as an audience — don't have, in your eye and imagination, all those realistic elements to attach to, it's going to look artificial, no matter what. It's going to look stylish, no matter what behaviours are like.
It was very interesting to me as a performer. I saw Dogville twice and liked it far better the second time. It is a film you really have to commit to, because it's quite long, it's quite slow, so you have to really, almost, get into a dream state to receive it in the right way, which, by the way, is exactly the way I like to see movies.'
Did you have any reservations about this movie?
'Well, actually I think Americans are more familiar to the subject, slavery, than most people. I mean, it's our history. It's the Europeans who don't know much about it, because they haven't lived with it, so they haven't dealt with it in the same way.'
Many European countries, including Denmark, made huge profits on slavery. Do you think the Americans have dealt better with their history than the Europeans?
Well, Americans have dealt with it, but I didn't say better. I am old enough to remember the Civil Rights Movement. But I also see this movie as a metaphor for a certain kind of colonialism and I certainly think about what is happening in Iraq.'
'Yeah, at least kind of going in and having an idea of what is good for people. I think, it is very resonant what Grace's father says about it, because it was a kind of naivety and arrogance that made people think, that the Americans were going to be in Iraq only for a short time and that they were doing these people a favour. Now we see it unravelling, as we see it unravel in Manderlay and it just reminds you again … Well, it is just that whole feeling that you can't … I mean, people have to liberate themselves."
However critical you might be of America and her politics, you never — as some other Americans — feel like saying: "Goddamn, Lars, you don't know and don't understand us"?
"I don't think that this film is about America only. It's about the whole world. And, personally, I don't identify so much with being an American. I travel a lot and I've got enough friends from other parts of the world. And I live in New York, which is hardly a typical American city.
But at the same time: I love the States. I rea lly do and I like New York. It's a city that is always changing and what goes on there is always interesting. It's tough, but also very close to human reality. In its own funny way, in its toughness, it is one of the most creative and compassionate places in around.
You know, you talk about the West and the East, you talk about Christian traditions or traditions of Islam, you talk about colour or regions …, I think the Europeans and the Americans are in bed together. The differences are sort of superficial but the Europeans hate to hear that, because they tend to see the Americans as being this kind of militaristic superpower, which is true, but not the only truth.
When I saw Dogville, I laughed, when people said it was a story about America, because it reminded me more of a small European town … That kind of narrowness, that kind of superficial liberalism, that kind of goodwill community spirit, that some people of Dogville have, to me is more European than American. I don't think Lars is anti-American. He is interested in certain human behaviours and his sense of justice and his worldview goes beyond what is in the papers or what is going on right now. He's not a political polemic. To me his movies are more philosophical."
LARS IS ALWAYS CONTROVERSIAL
-Lauren Bacall (Mam)
about finding the script of Manderlay fuller and better written than Dogville and Lars von Trier easier to work with:
'When I got the offer of coming back to work with Lars and play this small part in Manderlay, I got extremely flattered and since it was such a short time to spend here, I thought, why not have another von Trier experience.'
How did you like Dogville?
"I liked it a lot better than I thought I would. I was somewhat apprehensive about it, I don't know quite why, but I finally did like it. Actually I liked it quite well. It is always interesting to see anything that you've done, and I was not looking at my own part, because I really didn't have anything to do in the movie, but I was curious to see what a director like Lars had done with the material.
His concept is so original, that it has nothing to do with movies as I have known them. It has nothing to do with what I was taught to do when you make movies, because his whole approach is totally different and I think, for the most part, it was quite well received in America. There were some critics who thought it was brilliant and not that many were really mean about it. There was, of course, one review that was really bad, but, you know, some of those critics I don't have much regard for anyway.'
Let's talk about Manderlay. What was your first reaction when you read the script?
"I found it very interesting. In some ways, I thought it was a better script than Dogville, better written. I mean the writing is fuller.'
Do you also see it as more controversial?
'Lars' movies are always controversial. He is controversial.'
Danny Glover has told me that he had some reservations about the script, because he felt that slavery and its aftermath is seen from a white man's perspective?
'Well, I'm not going to go into that. Everyone has a different point of view. It is about slavery, it is about a plantation in the thirties, that's what this movie is about and so what? I think when you are making a movie, you're making a movie.
It's not a documentary, so I'm not going into political meanings and in-depth opinions. I think it is pretentious to do that. People will react differently to the movie, and that's how it should be. When a director writes a script and an actor reads it and decides to be in it — and in this case most actors say yes, because of whom the director is — the actor has to follow the director. It's as simple as that.
I think that everything Lars does is interesting. I don't agree with it all, but I always find it interesting and worthwhile. Of course until I got here [to the studio in Sweden], I had no idea really, what it was going to be like. But now I know that it is not the same as Dogville. I mean Lars uses the camera the same way, but that's how he uses the camera, when he makes movies, so I don't think that's peculiar to this movie or to Dogville. But I find him much easier to work with on this movie, than he was on Dogville.'
Do you know why?
"No, don't ask me to explain his behaviour? I think there is no explanation, except that I do think that he had a lot of actors present all the time in Dogville, but he really hadn't enough for us to do. That is not the case here. He knows the story he wants to tell and if you work with someone like Lars von Trier, you have to go with what he does, otherwise don't work with him. So I choose to go with what he does, because I find it interesting and a lot better than some of the stuff that I have seen, much less been offered.'
Do you think that slavery and its aftermath is an important subject for a movie?
"What do you mean, important? A director who writes a script decides what he wants to write about. Whatever the subject is, that's it. You don't ask him why he wrote it. At least I don't. I just go along with what he wrote. And number one: until I see it, I don't know whether it moves me or touches me. Number two: you can't break it down that way.
I think your approach is wrong here. It's fiction to me. I don't think Lars is making a statement here as I don't think Dogville was anti-American. I never did. You make what you want to make and what you believe in. And is everybody supposed to make movies in a certain way and about the same subjects? Of course not!
All you know is that Lars always gets good actors, he always gets good people together, and to go along with him is always an interesting journey. You can only hope that the movie is good and will be well received. But actually, I don't really think about that now, because you never know how people are going to respond to the work you have done, do you?'
Manderlay is an ambiguous moral comedy
- Lars von Trier (writer and director)
talks about the second part of his trilogy about the USA, and about the new Grace we meet in Manderlay:
'Of course Grace is influenced by whoever plays her. And as you know, the script was written for Nicole [Kidman]. So when it turned out not to be her, obviously the character had to change according to the actress. For example, I think it's great fun that she is so young, because it makes the stubbornness in the character more probable. And also her very naïve approach to things; though of course naïveté is something my heroines have always possessed …'
And a peculiar kind of resolve?
'They certainly have that. So there's no novelty there.'
It's a fable, of course …'Yes, it is.'
But does the fact that Grace wears the same evening dress at Manderlay as Grace did in Dogville mean that you want us to see her as the same Grace even though Nicole Kidman and Bryce Dallas Howard don't resemble each other?
'Yes, it's the same Grace. Her Gestalt is just different. It is another Gestalting of the same Grace. Yes.
But the Grace of Manderlay reacts completely differently. She is far more active: Grace in Dogville noted everything and didn't intervene until the end.
'Yes, but I can see the development from the Grace of the first film to this Grace. The idea was that it would be a developmental trilogy centred on the character of Grace. At the end of Dogville she comes into a bit of power, and she predicts that she will use it for making the world a better place”.
Does she do that in Manderlay?
'Well, none of my characters have ever made anything better. But she tries, and I think she believes in it. Her heart is in it.'
If I compared Grace in Manderlay with George W. Bush and his mission in Iraq — with the common feature that if democracy doesn't come quickly enough it must be put there by force — what would you say?
'That's quite clear, yes; you can certainly see her that way. You can say a lot of nasty things about Bush, but don't you think his heart is in it and he believes in what he is doing? Why would Bush trick us? It's because he thinks things will improve this way. There's no doubt about it. He believes in it. And Grace does too. Definitely.'
So what do you want to tell us in Manderlay?
'I don't know … it's the same story all over again. But what's funny — or alien — to me in Manderlay is that the film involves other races, which I think is fun. In Denmark we tell ourselves we have never had a race problem, but then there were no Negroes in Denmark when I was a kid. They were practically non-existent apart from the odd jazz musician. Since then racism has reared its ugly face, so in that way Manderlay is also about things in Denmark, perhaps.
The plot is based on two things. On a preface written by a French writer for The Story of O [see page 3] about some liberated slaves who were starving and wanted their master back, because at least then they had something to eat. And when he refused, they killed him. This cheerful little tale fascinated me. The film was also inspired by Jacob Holdt's photos and lectures about the USA.'
You didn't feel any urge to …'Teach people something?
Oh, I don't know. You can call it a moral comedy. Certainly. But at the same time I hope it is ambiguous, especially the ending. I can always cover myself by being ambiguous.'
Why isn't there anybody good in Manderlay? No heroes or heroines?
'Oh, unless you say Mam is … she comes close to being — in the end — to being a heroine, don't you think? Grace ought to be one, of course, but she spoils everything around her by being too stupid and too idealistic. What she lacks is political pragmatism: she is just stupid and idealistic. And far too emotional. You shouldn't be like that in politics because if you are you don't get anywhere.'
But shouldn't we be like that in real life?
'Emotional? Sure, but if you are emotional in real life you don't get anywhere either. You just don't.'
Does that mean you have to get by on cynicism?
You have to. That's the point if you're a thinking human being. You have to have a degree of cynicism or you won't survive. I am in all kinds of angst therapy at the moment, and the idea is that what much of the brain does initially is to filter sensory impressions because they don't matter to us.
There are a few people — the ones who really are unhinged or those who are only half-unhinged ands a bit arty-farty — who have a filter that doesn't work well enough. That's to say they don't filter all the stuff out that doesn't matter to human life. They often become objects of interest to people with good filters, because they open their eyes to things outside their field of vision. Things they can't see because of their own good filters, healthy filters. But these artists are often not terribly happy, because if your filter doesn't work well enough, you can't exist properly as a human being".
I have always seen you as somebody who raises the bar every time because you love not knowing whether you'll be able to jump it. While you were shooting Dogville you raised it so high that you may not have known you'd be able to get the world to go along with your minimalism and chalk marks on the floor. Now you're making Manderlay in the same way, as a kind of repeat of the idea. How did you feel about that?
'Don't forget that I always get over the bar one way or another. If not, I get under it … I always have excuses for doing things precisely the way I do them. And also this time I was the one who decided just how high the bar should be, wasn't I?'
But for once you and the audience both know the height of the bar, the premises …
'Oh, that's what you mean. It never entered my mind. Shooting Manderlay was very undramatic and pleasant, but the problem is the filter I mentioned … If you don't use it on one thing you use it on something else. I was riddled by angst when I made Manderlay, but it is true that there were not quite the same challenges to me professionally speaking as during Dogville. Partly because Bryce [Dallas Howard] was so incredibly easy to work with. So was Nicole [Kidman], because she was highly professional and worked amazingly hard … so did Bryce, but even though it wasn't her debut, it was her "almost-debut".'
So Nicole Kidman did give you another kind of response?
'Yes, obviously she did. Nicole gave me the response inherent in experience. Bryce doesn't have that experience yet. But of course I've tried both things previously. I worked with Emily Watson, who was new to the job. It is pleasant. And if you don't receive a response the way you do from someone with experience, you have to see if you can generate it for yourself so you can get the job done anyway …'
'And listen up: I'll put the bar up high, don't worry. I always do. If I don't raise it high in one way I do so in another. I'll put it sky high, don't you worry. I always raise it to the utmost of my ability, but it isn't certain that you can always see this in the film. Sometimes I raise it in relation to personal issues, at other times in relation to professional ones. But it is always all the way up. Be sure of that.'
'I don't think I've been idle yet. But perhaps I was a bit idler with Manderlay because the script was more compressed and planned this time. Dogville spread out more. This is a neater story, right?'
The plot of Manderlay is probably more dramatic and politically provocative. But in Dogville the light and the mood changed in a split second from friendliness to ice-cold malice, and in a single glance from Nicole Kidman you could see ten layers of emotion, while all the time, beneath the surface, this pain, ambiguity and insecurity were lurking …
'Hmm. That's probably true. I know what you mean, but I find it hard to analyse my way to it. And maybe it did hurt less, making Manderlay. But a film like Dancer [in the Dark] hurt like hell to make, and in that film there really was more than one person to raise the bar, wasn't there?'
And it still moves me to think of Björk's performance …
Me, too, although it's probably in another direction. But I have to say that I have been very fortunate with the actors I've used. They really give me a lot. And I also think Bryce did so, to a very high degree. She is definitely talented. They are really, really all very generous. And one has to say that Björk was, during shooting, very generous. And Nicole … No, I can't complain that my casts lack generosity.'
Danny Glover says one of his reservations about the script was that it was viewed solely from a white man's point of view?
'He is right. It is. In the sense that I am white, though I felt myself becoming a bit more of a nigger as we went along, because I had a whole lot of fun with the British coloured actors. Yes, Danny is right. It is viewed from a white man's point of view; but on the other hand, that's a very good thing, isn't it? After all, nobody is saying that this is the truth about anything whatsoever".
Didn't you ever feel tempted — on grounds of political correctness, for example — to make just one of the black actors a tiny bit more heroic?
'No. I have never had anyone in my films who's better than they are. Unless it was in Dancer. And it's a shame for the coloured actors if they're only allowed to play heroes. If they aren't allowed to be human as well. After all, that's what they have to fight for in the film industry; what they all talk about: "the white parts". Not until black actors are allowed to play white parts will they have got to the stage where they are no longer defined as heroes or presidents; but black heroes are still very popular in American movies".
Yet it was hard to find black actors from America who'd dare to appear in Manderlay?
'Yes, it was hard. We tried several who thought it was a good thing that the film was being made and that it was interesting. But they didn't dare take part because it's explosive stuff in the USA. Especially because the film goes that step farther, and the coloureds don't just play …
Typical Denzel Washington parts?
'Precisely. And we discovered that there were enormous differences in attitudes between the USA and England. The English actors were completely relaxed about it; we joked about it, and they said "Yes, Massa" to me every morning. They had a laugh.
The Americans view the issue much more seriously and their entire history of slavery is also completely different. It is a huge wound in America, so there is no doubt that Danny was very courageous to accept the part. But it shouldn't be that way. My mother was an active women's libber but against quotas. Nobody should be able to say a woman got her job because of her sex. She should get it because of her qualifications. Or you can't live with it.
Likewise, it must be dull for an actor always to play heroes just because he's Afro-American, and from that point of view I think the parts in Manderlay go a step further. And anyway the fact is that I have always treated my characters like that; I have never treated whites any differently from blacks as such".
Yet the English actress Llewella Gideon [Victoria] says that as a black woman she felt it was a problem that Victoria was so violent; to her children, too?
I think it would be a problem for anybody to be violent to one's children, but it's acting! That's what they mustn't forget. But obviously when you get so close to the actors and use loads of them in the scenes the way of course I do, some things are harder for them to do. Other things are easier. Obviously it is harder to do the things you don't feel are so nice.
But the fact that she whips the children is a very good point, isn't it? It has to do with the whole structure of the film, and I don't know how much we should give away, but to me the violence to her children was certainly a significant detail.'
I know that you thought it all up and wrote it all down, but even so, aren't you sorry on mankind's behalf that the former slaves choose the death penalty, the most primitive solution of all, the first time they have the opportunity to determine the sanction for a serious crime, democratically, by a show of hands?
'Yes, but don't you think that's what they'd do? Democracy has to start somewhere. That's why it is incredibly difficult to impose democracy by force. Every other system of government is easier to impose by force, isn't it?
Democracy is difficult. We can tell from Iraq, among other places. A people and a country have to grow into democracy. It is possible that they can grow even farther into kinds of society as yet unknown to us. But at the moment one probably has to say that democracy is the kind of society that requires the most upbringing of the individual. By parents or society.
One may probably also say that in my films I generally make people a bit stupider than they really are. In one way or another they are stupid even though they think they are very clever. Whether they're black or white, they are all stupider … there ought to be a law against it. I know! But that's where the comedy comes in. It's stylization, right?'
Is Grace's father right when he says in Manderlay that she should not interfere, and she should let the slaves cope with liberation by themselves? Or is Grace right when she does intervene, because the whites are guilty: "We made them what they are"?
There is no doubt that the entire blame for oppression rests on the whites, but tellingly enough, every major town or city in the USA with respect for itself has a Holocaust museum, but none has a museum of the racial oppression that took place within the USA itself, yet slavery was just as barbaric and terrible as the Holocaust, wasn't it?
Obviously "we made them". But the question the film addresses is the options open to the former slaves in a life of freedom. If society as such is not ready to welcome them with open arms, they won't have the same options, and it may be better to find intermediate states which can slowly develop. If they develop in the right direction, that is.
The attitude the former slaves from Manderlay assume is unfortunately highly egoistic. To them all that matters is for them to have the best, and obviously if everyone thinks and acts like that, you get nowhere. You've got to have somebody — from among their own ranks as well — who demonstrates solidarity and takes up the struggle.
Now all you are missing is the final part of the USA trilogy, i.e. Washington?
Yes, I'm working on it, but it isn't easy. I still want to make it, and I've got some good things, so let's see what happens".
Will Grace bring her experiences from Manderlay to Washington, the way she brought to Manderlay what she had learned from Dogville?
'That's the idea, yes. I hope we'll finish off with a more mature Grace. She ought to have developed quite a bit".
And perhaps she'll be played by Nicole Kidman again?
Well, we're talking about it. The most logical thing now would be to have three different actresses for Grace, but let's see …' |
