HJ: You have described your relationship with Richard as one that was constantly shifting, at times being very trusting and at others being more distant. Can you describe what that looked like and what sort of situations brought about those shifts?

MJ: I think sometimes it came from me and sometimes it came from him. It was never spoken about. It was always either real or inside my head. It was usually just a matter of how warm and welcoming versus how cold and shoving he was to me. I think there were just different times where I was picking up from him, like, "leave me alone," and different times, like, "you're totally welcome to film this or you're totally welcome to see this." Here they are being so vulnerable in front of me, and I'm totally aware of that, yet at the same time, I need that. I need that for my story. It makes my story more powerful the more invisible I am and the more vulnerable they are in front of the camera. And there are just moments when I feel I had to manage that relationship. It's hard to sort of specifically talk about relationship management when it's just a series of feelings and ideas and perceptions, but at times it just felt more warm and open, and at times it felt less warm at open.

HJ: Why do you think that changed when it did?

MJ: Probably for a variety of reasons. I think it could have just been the whims of the day. He's stressed out about all these other things going on in his life from family to church to filmmaking, and here I come saying, like, "Hey, I need ten minutes of your time," or "Hey, can I come shoot today?" It's just like I'm this nagging filmmaker, and it was probably just real and practical. At other times, I feel like he was tired of being vulnerable in front of me and saying, like, "You've got so much on us, when are you going to leave us alone?" Again, he never said any of this straight to my face. I would have respected it if he had. Then some of the times, it was just inside my head, my own insecurity about my role and relationship with them getting the better of me and saying, like, "Man, I should probably back off." Even though it was never said that I was doing something wrong&ellips; I'm pretty perceptive, I guess, and I was always perceptive of how he was feeling and when to shoot and when not to shoot.



There are plenty of times where I turned the camera off. Even the fight in Italy, when the actor comes up to him, Richard turns to me and says, "Are you going to record this." I was like, "I'm going to keep recording, but if you want me to stop, I'll stop." Richard said, "I don't care." And then Ken said, "No, he can record this. He's making a film; I want him to see everything." Then I start rolling again&ellips; So it changed day to day, week to week. Toward the middle to the end of my experience with them, it got its most intense, where I felt as unwelcome as I ever had before. But then two months after that, I'm equally welcomed again; I'm picking up on this communal vibe. Even now that the film's done, if I walked into that church right now, I would get all of these hugs.

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