BULLETIN BOARD

DOGMA
Subject: Films that portray Christians positively
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001
From: Rev. Rebecca

Believe it or not, my all time favorite is Dogma. My youth group introduced me to this one [with many blushes and apologies for the language-as if I might never have heard such things.] I alternately laughed and cried through the whole thing and we had a great discussion on the essence of faith and forgiveness.
Rev. Rebecca

Response: You go girl. -David

DOGMA'S CHURCH
Subject: Dogma
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001
From: Pastor Ken Stevenson

Grace and peace in Jesus ! In 1994, I was approached by a film company that wanted to use our church property while shooting a Paul Newman movie. I really felt led to allow it. "Nobody's Fool" was hosted for a few short days by our Church family: Everlasting Covenant. During a lunch served in our cafeteria I was given to INCREDIBLE opportunity to be able to preach a message entitled, "Nobody's Fool" based on Ps 14:1 to the ENTIRE CAST & CREW. Paul Newman spoke to our children and through tears apllauded our efforts to reach at risk children. The church got a few dollars for rent of the facilities. Several weeks later the school received the first of two grants from Newman's Own...much needed funds for a school that gives many scholarships annually. A school that teaches the children the unadulterated Word of God, but also teaches the arts. Fast-forward to Pgh (my hometown AND our first satellite ministry) and Kevin Smith and crew approach me about shooting DOGMA on site there. MOST of the film was done somewhere on our grounds. I had MUCH personal time to share with Kevin directly once even stopping the shooting to sit on the curb and discuss GOD. Again I preached to the cast and crew a message entitled DOGMA. I can tell you that those who listened were noticeably impacted. Personal impacts that brought about a desire for "lifestyle" changes....Only GOD can tell the long range results, but having been raised a Catholic, I understood how Kevin, a Catholic felt.....BUT THE "CHURCH" has ATTACKED us and few understood how or why we let it happen....IT WAS A SATIRE.....NO FOUL LANGAUGE was in the Church proper and we truIy believe seeds were planted....there is of course much more, btu I'll close for now....
In Christ,
Pastor Ken Stevenson

Response: Oh my, like wow! You are my kind of pastor. Thanks for opening up your church. Thanks for being open. -David

GOD IS
Subject: dogma the movie
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001
From: S. Poffinberger

I agree wholeheartedly with your reviews, and although there is quite a bit of the film that could insult a Christian, I felt the entire movie was dedicated to the message that there IS God, and there IS a message
S. Poffinberger

STRIPPER OFFENSIVE
Subject: About your comments to 'JT' - Stripper Offensive...
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001
From: Jim

Wow! I was absolutely appalled by your response to the gentleman ("JT") who wrote regarding the picture of the stripper in the Dogma review (http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/dogma.htm). Please read 1 Corinthians 10:23-11:1, specifically v.32 - "Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks, or the Church of God" (1 Cor 10:32 NIV). Please be aware that if it is evident that something may cause a brother to stumble (and in this case, he has even admittedly said this type of image can take his focus of Christ), then you should respect the man's conscience... (in the words of Paul)..."both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience sake---the other man's conscience, I mean not yours" (1 Cor. 10:28,29 NIV). If, by the grace of God, you have not fallen victim to any sort of temptations akin to those of which this man speaks, praise God for that freedom which you have. But please be more thoughtful of your brother/neighbor, dedicating this site to the "glory of God" (see 1 Cor 10:31 NIV), "seeking...the good of many, so that they may be saved" (1 Cor 10:33 NIV).

The writer's ("JT") concern, was vaild, especially in light of scripture. Just becasue the world barades us with these images on a daily basis, does not justify their presence, especially in ministry related material. Please reconsider and thank you for your time.
-Jim <>

Response: I agree that I may have come on too strong and that I should have been more polite. Thank you for reminding me. However, I disagree with your use of 1 Cor. 10:32. I would go crazy trying to figure out what might or might not trigger someone's problem out there in cyberspace. There are so many possibilities. But, in the context of working personally with someone I know, who has a weakness, this passage has real meaning to me. This is the context of Paul's remark. -David

SLOPPY ARUMENT
Subject: sloppy argument
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000
From: David C.

I enjoyed the film but it's naive in it's conclusion that "It doesn't matter what kind of faith you have as long as you have faith." As if "faith" were some kind of objective truth that everyone can participate in. Not so! Faith is a very specific word that has a very concrete and detailed history. What is faith for a Catholic is different for a Buddhist or Muslim. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying that the "experience" of that word is qualitatively different for each tradition. Post-modernism has shown us that there is no objective experience, everything is relative and everything has a history or narrative that shapes and forms that experience in ways we don't often think about. Here's what I mean by that. If Kevin Smith is a practicing Catholic, then he can not draw the conclusion that "It doesn't matter what kind of faith you have" because the Catholic understanding and experience of faith is rooted in a two thousand year old history that has shaped that word to a very specific kind of experience. So if he steps outside of his Catholic Narrative to make that statement, well then what history and tradition is he speaking from? If there is no such thing as objectivity, then what narrative is he speaking out of? My guess is that it's some sort of modernist liberal democratic narrative that has it's roots in the scientism of 19th century America. It was a funny movie though.
Dave C.

VAN KAPPEN AND SATIRE
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000
From: Jessi Marie

I don't know about this movie- I have yet to see it- but Van Kappen's posting was one of the funniest things I've seen today. Am I the only one who didn't take this seriously? I mean, talk about satire...
-Jessi Marie

MY TWO CENTS
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000
From: Jessi Marie

to "Dogma Hater"- Matthew 1:24-25 "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no sexual union with her until she gave birth to a son ." I don't know exactly how the Catholic church can teach that Mary was a virgin her entire life. Not only is it clearly untrue, it is totally unnecessary to giving the matter of the virgin birth any validity.
-Jessi Marie

WHERE ARE THE NEGATIVE REMARKS IN hOLLYWOOD JESUS?
Subject: about the movie "dogma"
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000
From: juppi

Dear mr. Bruce,
First of all I must aplogice for my poor grammar, but english is only my fourth language.

When the movie 'dogma' came to the movie theaters I thought at first that I would not go and see it, because I have no reason to watch something that is as important to me as christianity bening shown in a bad way. But then I read your interview, and decided to see the movie. To me 'dogma' was a slight disappointment. It true that 'dogma' does not contradict any of the really important catholic teaching (althoug in some of the catholic traditions it is taught that Jesus's brothers and sisters were from Josef's previous marriage, and therefor Mary was a virgin), but still I do think that the movies attitude towards christianity and the church is very disrespectful. For example it is true that the apostles were only humans, but they were also born again christians, and it is very difficult for me to see for example Paul behaving in manner that the two apostoles behave in the movie.

This has actually bothered me before in your interviews like in the case of 'Matrix' where you wrote a long article about the minor christian aspects of the movie, but totally missed out the main buddhist overtone. You should be able to also mention the negative aspects of a movie.
Yours Toni

Response: In Philip. 4:8 we read, "Summing it all up, friends, I'd say you'll do best by filling your minds and meditating on things true, noble, reputable, authentic, compelling, gracious-the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; things to praise, not things to curse." And so it is in Hollywood Jesus. -David

STRIPPER OFFENSIVE
Subject: Review of Dogma
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000
From: "JT"

I find your site very interesting. I have one objection though : have you considered some of the images (of the movies) you have shown on your site could be a catalyst in bringing our Christian brothers down? I know there are many people (Christian & non-Christians) suffering from sexual addictions that could be provoked by images. And one of the images you included in your review of Dogma, could, in my personal opinion, be a stumbling block for those who are dealing with a problem like this. By no way am I a "legalistic" Christian, for I have many faults and by no means, have a right to judge or dictate the flaws of others. But I know what it's like to deal with sexual addiction problems, and to have a picture of a stripper (I know she's clothed) is risky in my healing. Of course, it's your website and your call : but for me it's a risk to read your reviews if there is "eye-candy" to take my focus off Christ.
Thanks. JT
Please do not publish my email.

Response: Yes I would say you have a problem. Get into counseling, immediately. How is it possible for you even to walk out your front door, watch TV, page through a magazine? What do you do with Michelangelo's great Bible art with all of the nudity? This is not my call! This is your thing, not mine. The world can not adjust to prevent triggers for your addiction. I will pray for you. God can help you. Blessings on you.

LIKED REVIEW
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000
From: Sanpaulito

Excellent Review.

DOGMA TRUE TO HUMAN NATURE
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000
From: Teresa

I recently saw Dogma on video. I loved it. Now don't misunderstand me. Jay had a filthy mouth, but so did I when I first came to Christ. Which prophet had to have God put a coal on his mouth to cleanse it before he could prophesy to israel? David was a murderer and an adulterer, but God used him. Hosea married a whore because God told him to!!!!! The point is, God will use who He will, whenever He will, and we always benefit from it! God has a way of interrupting our lives in the most spectacular way, that you often only realize in hindsight. Dogma is God's way of saying "How can you wrap your man-sized mind around my God sized omnipotence? How can you cram all of who I am into one religion?" I have been raised in the church, but have only been saved the last 11 years of my life. Was God at work in my life before I was saved? You bet he was, because He has a purpose and a plan for everyone born on this earth. Whether or not you accept the plan is up to you, but God loves you no less because of your decision. This movie spoke so much truth about how fallible we are as humans, but yet we still try to dictate the relationship that God has with others. My relationship with Him is just that, and is not contingent upon anyone else. If I know the truth, and have allowed that truth to transform my life, then I'm living according to the will of God. I'm sorry, I've gotten on the soap box. Dogma calls us to examine our own lives and the things we believe in. God wants us to be sure that we are following Him because we love Him, not because the Pope or any Bishop or any pastor or anyone else has told us to. He desires relationship, and you can find out how to have a relationship with Him by attending church, but church does not define who you are or your relationship with The Almighty God. Did I mention I liked the movie?
Teresa Bourn

RESPONSE TO DOGMA HATER
Subject: Response to the person who said, "Hates Dogma"
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000
From: Aiw kid

In response to the person who's subject was, "Hates Dogma" I just want to say that it isn't wrong to say Jospeh and Mary had sex. It IS wrong to say that Mary and Joseph had sex before Jesus' birth. The Catholic church thinks that Mary was a virgin her whole life and that is utterly false. The Bible clearly states (and you, David, have given scripture verses in the first page of Dogma that prove it) that Jesus had siblings. Now, are you Catholics trying to tell me that everyone of Mary's babies were conceived by The Holy Spirit?! Are you saying that all of Mary's children were Messiahs? There was only ONE Messiah and His Name is Jesus of Nazareth! And since there's only one Messiah that means the rest of Mary's children were conceived from Joseph's sperm (sorry for getting a little too technical). So it's NOT "evil" to say that Mary wasn't a virgin her whole life even though at the time of Jesus' birth she actually was one.

As a matter of fact, I can't even recall a Bible character (besides Jesus unless the Last Temptation of Christ is right) that has not had sex. There are some exceptions but most of them have had sex-Moses, David (he commited adultery!!!!!!!), Abraham (he commited adultery, too by sleeping with his servant because he didn't think God would keep is promise) and there are so many others. Sex isn't a sin. Sex is a gift from God. The only thing is that gift can NOT be opened until Marriage, sort of like an early Christmas gift you might say. I can go on about the lecture of spiritual sex but my fingers are getting tired so I'll just end it here.

HJ HELPED
Subject: Dogma of course
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000
From: Aiw kid

Well, I had watched Dogma before with my sister and at first I hated it. I thought it went against Scripture in everyform possible except for a few parts (Jesus having dark skin, Jesus having siblings). After viewing I didn't want to even think of the film because I thought it was so blasphemous. After visiting the Dogma page of Hollywood Jesus, I saw the film in a new light. I realize now what Kevin Smith was trying to show. Hollywood Jesus always changes the way I look at films which it's obviously intended to do and does a good job of it. I think I'm going to watch Dogma again and see it a new light and perhaps, even like it!
Thank you, David, for showing me Dogma in a new light.

MY MOM, SUNDAY SCHOOL, AND DOGMA
Subject: Misunderstood Hollywood
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000
From: Jessie

Gotta thank my sunday school teacher for throwing a kink in my armor called, "HollywoodJesus.com." He really got me looking at all the secular books, music & movies I enjoy in another light. But speaking on "Dogma:" I have to say my mother was a little less than thrilled when she heard what movie I rented --and even less enthused as she heard me LITERALLY rolling in the floor over the audacious & sometimes very REAL comments made in "Dogma." I remember when it came out, people URGED me though e-mails NOT to see this movie.... NOT to support Hollywood in its pursuits of such (insert choice negative word here). But I never did seek its opposite either.

I literally stumbled upon "Dogma" in the video store and tried it. Granted it wasn't the BRIGHTEST of directed films, but to a Ever-Growing Christian, it made me think. For example: Fallen angels? Okay. A 13th Diciple? Maybe. People struggling with Spirtual problems in a secular world? DEFINETLY! Yeah, Jesus was a giver, a healer, a lover, a believer... he was HUMAN too. And yeah, look at how we put Him & things centered around Him into these cute little boxes, and not let them GROW beyond that. God as a woman? God as a man? Doesn't matter to me... I think if females were made in His image too, then He could even be hermaphaditic!

In relating my experience to my mom the next day, she STILL wasn't too thrilled, but saw a glimpse of the insight I took into my own soul & beliefs that night after watching it. I did tell her that I didn't recommend my baby sister seeing it, b/c on her emotional/spiritual level she would simply look at all religious beliefs as a farce. Like some books, this movie is not for the wavering Spiritually Immature. "Dogma" is DEFINITELY not for everyone. Not even all scholarly Christians could look at it with an open mind --but it does encourage you to look at the SKIN YOU LIVE IN and what makes it up. It's good to "think outside of your box" every once in a while, and at least ponder, if not grow/change from it.
Jessie

DRUID SPEAKS ABOUT DOGMA
Subject: Druid on Dogma
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000
From: J.W.

I am glad to finally see a positive Christian review of Dogma, most Christian reviewers hated this movie. First let me say that I am not a Christian, I am a Druid, and as part of my training it is necessary that I have a full understanding of all major religions. I loved this movie for a number of reasons, but most of all was because it put the Christian, and more so the Catholic, view point in the proper perspective. I agree with your review, and would like to add that this movie is truer to the Christian mythos then most openly Christian productions are. And after reading many negative reviews of this movie it ferther solidifies a problem I have when Christians try to argue with me against my beliefs, and that is, that a lot of Christians do not know enough about there own religion to hold there own in an intelagent discussion on maters of faith. Thanks and keep up the good work, Hollywood Jesus is still my favorite place for movie reviews.

Response: Thanks for the kind thoughts J.W. -David

RELATES GOSPEL PRETTY DARN WELL
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000
From: kim

I won't take up a lot of space, because Dogma has just been released and I predict a flood of comments! I'm so glad you sell movies now because I really need to see Dogma a few more times. My initial reaction is this: Dogma is a major reality check, and boy do we need one! The people in this film are 'of the world', just like the people Jesus ministered to, just like me and you ('for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'). Dogma relates the gospel pretty darn well, and then some. It offers up the oft-overlooked concept of choice when the fallen angels are ticked-off at humans for having the option to choose obediance to God and often don't. Dogma is just chock-full of tasty morsels, right down to the last line of the credits, and we mustn't overlook its significance as a great witness. It's an offering of love to a hungry public. God must be smiling His approval. Enough said. See it!

HOLLYWOOD JESUS IS CONFUSED OR A FAKE!
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000
From: Faye

Do you really claim to be a Christian? How on earth can you endorse these sick movies? Especially Dogma? Jesus was TORTURED and died on a cross and movies like this make fun of God and Christ. You must make a good deal of money for your website and you are either a very confused Christian or you are a really big Fake.
No, you certainly don't have to answer to me only to God and that is enough for me. It just makes me sad to see someone defend Satan's work and he is hard at work in Hollywood. Would Jesus enjoy these movies as much as you do? Somehow I don't think so. However I am not your judge but I am very concerned since you claim to be a Christian.

My response: It is obvious that you have not seen the film. And you certainly have judged me. May God grant you peace and give you a profound love for other people.

SATIRICAL IN THE BEST WAYS
Subject: What a disappointment...
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000
From: Kirk

I went searching on the web to find a site bashing "Dogma" but instead I find this, a thoughtful critique and examination by someone with a well educated christian point of view.
I saw "Dogma" largely BECAUSE of all the radical extremist protests. I wanted to see the film so I could make up my own mind about it. Clearly, many of the protesters had made up their minds before seeing the film, if they saw it at all.

"Dogma," I thought, is silly, playful, and foul mouthed (more so than I'd like. Ah well.) It is also thought provoking and satirical in the best of ways. More power to it.

And more power to you, Hollywood Jesus. You've done your religious brothers a great service here.

DOGMA BRINGS RENEWAL
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000
From: JRB

I'd added Hollywood Jesus to my favorites a few months ago and never really stayed online long enough to check any of my favorites until recently. I am a Christian but really had lots of questions re: God and faith especially since I've really felt a "push" if you will to study religion on the graduate level.

I not only saw Dogma, I went back and took one of my Catholic friends who very much like Bethany felt that God didn't always listen or even care and like Bethany went to church every Sunday but pretty much out of habit and to pass time. I have to admit that sometime I'd be in the same boat and struggling with it.

I left the film not raging against the writer/story but feeling a sense of renewal. Overlook the non-virtuous aspects of Bethany, Jay, Silent Bob, the profane Rufus and the stripping Serendipity and you have the very kind of people that God looks to use. People that fall and backslide, maybe drink and maybe curse among other things are the ones that the Kingdom seeks. If we were all perfect and righteous, we wouldn't be here - the only one to walk the earth without sin, to my knowledge was Jesus. Isn't there a parable about the shepherd and the lost sheep and in a nutshell there is much rejoicing over "finding" the lost sheep over the 99 that were already "saved?" (you can feel free to correct my interpretation). Kevin Smith's films attract a young market and perhaps if Dogma can at least get some of those folks to think about their own faith and relationship with God and the questions that may prevent them from believing, then hey, it did a job that maybe some of the "righteous finger-pointers" may not have been able to do. Sometimes, presentation is everything. It may not be perfect in everyone's eyes but those who need it see it. Thanks for reading and again, feel free to correct or criticize as needed. Be Blessed!
My response: Thank you, I agree with you.

REGARDING NICK'S DOGMA LETTER
Subject: in response to that other guy...er, NICK.
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:24:26 -0000
From: yuffieK yuffie.kisaragi@virgin.net

I haven't read all the reviews yet, but this was the first one that annoyed me enough to write anything...

"BELIEVES DOGMA IS ANTI-CHURCH
Subject: Wasn't funny, inept storytelling, muddled message
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999
From: Nick"

"As a social commentary, the film is entirely muddled. On the one hand, it mocks efforts to present Christianity in a more relational context (hence, the exaggerated "Buddy Jesus" in denying the cross). That point is good, but it runs counter to the filmmakers clearly pro-choice viewpoints"

No it doesn't... explain yourself.

"along with other wishy-washy doctrines ("it doesn't matter what faith you have as long as you have faith"). In other words, Kevin Smith is saying that you gotta incorporate the hard stuff to swallow, but not if it's stuff you disagree with! Shallow-shallow-shallow."

Well so what? why should you follow a religion in which you do not believe? theres nothing shallow about following your own faith, and doing what you believe in

"Lastly, I am terribly disappointed in Hollywood Jesus' response to the film's protesters. These are brothers and sisters in Christ, who care deeply for moral content, and yes, many of the protesters HAVE SEEN the film, or read the screenplay, which is as good as seeing it. (Disagree? complain to your English teachers that you can't study Shakespeare until you see it performed in class each and every time!)."

As an occasional film-maker, this p*ssed me of beyond measure

theres a world of difference between seeing a film and reading the screenplay - this is why films have DIRECTORS. If there was no difference, then anyone could have read the screenplay and come up with, shot for shot, an identical film. Do you think this would happen if everyone in the world was given the screenplay? no, we'd have billions of completely different interpretations.
ok, thats all
oh, and feel free to put up my email address

DOGMA IS BAD FILM MAKING
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000
From: Chris Richards

what is all the fuss about this movie? Kevin Smith has proved that he can't direct once more and any signs of wit are completely absent from the dialogue-this movie may attempt a tongue-in-cheek celebration of christianity/religion but instead makes religion and believers look like idiots. BUT any and all argument aside; this movie is simply a very poor example of shallow american cinema.

ANAL SEX AND CHRISTIAN PORN?
Subject: Eelco for real?
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000
From: Greg

Is Eelco van Kappen for real? I just have a few questions about his/her post: How many times did s/he mention "anal sex" in his/her email? And how does s/he know anything about the film if s/he hasn't seen it? And could someone please explain where these Jimmy Osmond references are coming from? Why the "Christian rap" references? And what in the world are "Christian porn movies"? I seriously hope this is a joke....

By the way, I have only heard a few negative things about Dogma in passing, but after reading this page, I'm anxious to see it. I am a Christian and want to see what it's all about for myself instead of going on and on about stuff I know nothing about and/or have heard from other people (and I promise if I send a review I won't mention "anal sex" at all!)

AGNOSTIC TOUCHED BY DOGMA
Subject: I'm impressed
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000
From: Mischa
I am suprised and impressed at you view of the movie. I saw it 2 days ago with my friends. They are agnostic, and I probably am too. Not only was it funny, but is was a religious catharsis. It touched on everything and makes you think.
Thanks for the class.
My response: Your welcome. And thanks for the kind words. I am curious to know if Dogma made God more real for you? I would love to know more of your interaction with this important film that the both of us enjoyed.

FINDING LIGHT IN HOLLYWOOD JESUS
Subject: thanks
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000
From: Mindy H

dear hollywood jesus:

thanks for your objective view of "dogma". i am so exhausted from reading negative reviews from people who haven't seen the movie. it's great to read a review from someone who looks for light in everything and looks at a film's message, as opposed to damning films for reasons like how the message is presented.

i thought you might enjoy an item from the
http://newsaskew.com/november99/
(November 1999 Archives) about halfway down the page, in the update from november 14, 1999, there's a transcript of a www board post from kevin smith, beginning with the heading "kevin posts on dogma, more..."
i'm sending this to "private dogma" since i don't know whether you'd like a link to another site on the page, but if you feel it's relavent and you'd like to post it, go right ahead. the guys who run news askew are from my hometown, and i read them faithfully and would love to get them some extra press. also, i submitted your review to their "news and reviews" page. again, since i like your site, i tried to get you some press. i hope you don't mind. the entire review list can be found
http://www.newsaskew.com/dogmarc/press.html hollywood jesus is fairly close to the top of the list. anyway, i hope you enjoy the links. have a wonderful day, and god bless.
*mindy hildebrand*

My response: Thanks Mindy, I appreciate you.

CONTINUED