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RESPONSES TO LORD OF THE RINGS
EXERCISE
IN FUTILLITY
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001
From: RRD
I read the Hobbit
sometime in the late 60's early 70's and enjoyed it for its entertainment
value -fantasy. I then read the Trilogy and invested myself in it. I loved
it. I was not a Christian at that time (I am now) and viewed the story
as a tale of perseverence through great hardship and strength of character.
I never read any of the other books by Tolkien so I have no opinion about
the origin of LOTR. To attribute any religious significance to these storys
if an exercise in futility. I look forward to the films with great anticipation.
RRD
A
FEW SUGGESTIONS..
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001
From: Sprnatral7@aol.com To: Lord_of_Rings_E-mail
The analysis is excellent!!
However, I thought that I'd point out an error I noticed as well as something
you may have missed. First, you said in your Two Towers analysis that
the delay due to argument within the Orc camp led to their destruction
at the borders of Mirkwood. They were encircled and then destroyed by
the Rohirrim at the borders of Fangorn which isn't even related to Mirkwood,
but to the Old Forest just outside the Shire. It's MUCH older than Mirkwood.
Second, in the chapter entitled "The White Rider," Gandalf is Christlike
in that neither Gimli, Aragorn, or the sharp-eyed Legolas recognize who
he is even when he sits down and converses with them. Much like Jesus
and the men on the road after the Resurrection, it isn't until Gandalf
wishes that they see who he is.
Great site. Love it!!!
-Rob
MISTAKE
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: John
Pastor Wright made
many valid points. However, he was mistaken in one regard. C.S. Lewis
became a Christian in part due to Professor Tolkien. I think it safe to
say that Professor Tolkien had far more influence on C. S. Lewis (who
was an atheist for a large amount of the time of their friendship) and
on his writings, than Mr. Lewis had on Professor Tolkien.
ESSAY
ON TOLKIEN MYTHOLOGY AND CHRISTIANITY
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Chris
As a Christian and
an avid reader of Tolkien, I've always had a bit of a different spin that
the one you present, though in many ways our view is similar.
You posit that Tolkien
frames his theology/mythology of Middle Earth (1st - 3rd ages) is the
"basis" for Roman, Greek, Norse, and Anglo-Saxon mythology. I agree with
this.
However, I do not
take issue that there are no characters presented as Christ figures, nor
that the theology is Judaic and not Christian. To me, this makes perfect
sense. As of the end of Lord of the Rings, the Third Age has come to a
close, and the 4th age (the age of man) is beginning. The primary events
in the Bible occur (if we use Tolkien's framework) in the 4th age. I would
be more concerned if there were direct Christian parallels in Tolkien,
because then it would appear he was trying to give a "true" back-story
for a Judeo-Christian "myth". Since his books were confined to the 3rd
age and the previous ages, it appears to me that he was trying to put
the different sources of mythology into a framework which fit with a Judaic
(or Old Testament) underpinning.
However, to put this
into perspective, Tolkien's works were fiction, and he claimed to be a
Christian. On several occasions he cautioned people not to try to dig
too deeply or to take too many meanings from his works. If we ignore his
warning, we'll eventually look like the people who can speak Klingon and
can tell you how many bathrooms there were on the Starship Enterprise...
Chris
GREG
WRIGHT'S ESSAY
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
RE: Greg Wright's essay ...
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Eric
Pastor Wright:
Overall, I enjoyed your essay, (I love HollywoodJesus, and read the site
often) and I think it raises some thought-provoking questions, which is
the idea, of course! However, I do have a bone or two to pick with a few
of your points:
First, you comment
that: "the presumption is that Lewis' intense Christian spirituality somehow
rubbed off on Tolkien and found its way into his work"
Considering how well-researched
and thought-out your analysis is of Tolkien's construction of the mythology
and it's "source-texts" I am surprised that you erred so greatly on this
point. It is well-known that Tolkien's avowed and professed Christianity
pre-dates Lewis', and that the two had many discussions about the Faith
as friends and fellow members of the "Inklings" BEFORE Lewis' conversion.
When the two decided
to write, it is an oft-repeated legend that they agreed that Tolkien's
works would explore "travel in time" (i.e. - back to the "old history"
of our world) and that Lewis would explore "travel in space" (i.e. - to
'other worlds' such as Narnia and Perelandra). It is well-documented that
Tolkien evangelized to Lewis, and was in at least some ways instrumental
in reaching him for the Kingdom in the first place. So, if either "rubbed-off"
on the other I am afraid you have it backwards.
Secondly, I think
you mis-interpret Tolkien's intent in using "Christianity" as a base (whether
he did or not) for the spiritual realities of Middle-Earth.
You state that: "these
influences are more Judeo than Christian: Eru never condescends to walk
the earth in the form of a man and sacrifice himself"
But this misses the
point entirely. IF the "history" of Middle-earth is considered "true"
(in the context of the mythology and the stories) then it would PRE-DATE
all of those Biblical events. OF COURSE Eru has not "walked the Earth"
as Christ in these stories, NOR WOULD HE for thousands of years! The absence
of this spiritual context is simply an example of Tolkien's consistency
with the "date" of his mythology and pre-history. Indeed, the only real
bone to pick, if you are looking for one-to-one comparisons with Biblical
history would be with the Edenic accounts and with the creation of Adam
& Eve. Otherwise, much of the "history" of Middle-Earth can (for the purposes
of the suspension of disbelief) be conveniently inserted somewhere "between
chapters" in the book of Genesis, including the accounts of the flood.
But, I digress. The
main point here is not whether this work of fiction exactly mirrors the
history of the Bible. That would be an unfair comparison. It was never
meant to be allegorical in the sense that Lewis' Narnia tales were written.
The point is that the presumed "omission" of the Christ-story is NOT evidence
one way or another of Tolkien's beliefs or intented use of such spritual
themes.
As a matter of fact,
to be precise, much of Lewis' fiction uses VERY SIMILAR characters and
"heavenly heirarchy", to coin a term. In his science fiction trilogy,
particularly the third installment - enitled: "That Hideous Strength"
- Lewis comments within the narrative on the "fading of magic" from the
human experience WITHIN THE CONTEXT of a Christian worldview, and he ALSO
USES "angelic figures" whose power, presence, and even ROLE in the earthly
plane is remarkable similar to the way in which Tolkien employs the Valar
in his novels.
My intent is not to
gloss-over nor ignore the various mythological influences Tolkien used
to infuse his tales with familiar tones. However, I contend that his sincere
Christian beliefs did more to "re-cast" these myths in a manner that does
not, in fact, conflict with the tenets of our Faith at all. Although this
view of the "heavenly heirarchy" written by both Lewis and Tolkien may
not exactly resonate with the American Evangelical Protestant understanding,
it is not at all inconsistent with the cultural milieu of Catholics, Anglicans,
and other Christian traditions from that "arm" of the Church.
In conclusion, I think
it is unfair and quite simply inaccurate to characterize Tolkien's writings
(and beliefs) as "Universalist" in any way, shape, or form. This is not
at all consistent with what we know about the man from his other writings,
his friendship and correspondence with Mr. Lewis, and, indeed from the
text of his fiction as well.
Regards, Eric Walusis Dayton, OH
denarista@earthlink.net
TOLKIEN
AND CHRISTIANITY
Subject: Lord_of_Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Mithrilian
Dear Pastor Wright
I am surprised that nobody has pointed out the obvious. The story unfolds
_before_ Christ was born. Of course, there is nothing about Him in Tolkien's
books. They deal with much more ancient times. His characters cannot be
Christians, but the world described by him is ruled by the same laws as
Christians believe rule our world. His most enlightened characters are
monotheists, and the wisest of them (Finrod in "Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth")
speak of a great hope, "estel" that is not an ordinary hope that stems
out of our knowledge of the world, but a hope for something great and
divine. What is it if not a hope of Salvation that was realised through
the Coming of Christ much much MUCH later?
And dear Pastor Wright.
I believe, enough people have corrected you on the point of Tolkien and
Lewis that you should acknowledge it and publicly correct yourself. Your
work contains interesting ideas, but this error diverts a Tolkien fan
attention from them and enrages him.
Sincerely, Mithrilian
TOLKIEN
AND CHRISTIANITY
Subject: Lord of
the Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Michael
Perhaps you should
have done a bit more research before dismissing Tolkien as modernist and
dismissing the Christian aspects of his books. I found a number of problems
with your article.
1. In your arcticle
you say something about "C. S. Lewis's spirituality rubbing off on Tolkien."
Lewis was an athiest before he met Tolkien. (Read "Tolkien: A Celebration,"
there is an article by Caldecott.)
2. You referred to
Tolkien as a modernist. Tolkien remained a devout Roman Catholic his entire
life. He disliked putting the Mass into the vernacular and went to confession
every week. He also distrusted democracy. Not the type of person who has
modernist views (froom "Tolkien" by Homphrey Carpenter).
3. As far as Eru not
appearing incarnate during any of Tolkien's writings, you yourself supplied
the answer. Tolkien is writing a supposed mythology of the real world.
Thus he pretends it really happened but predated recorded history. Of
course there is no Christ-figure, for Christ hadn't come yet.
In the book "Morgoth's
Ring" (in the History of Middle-Earth series) and elf-king (Finrod) and
a woman (Andreth) talk about the extent of evil in Middle-Earth and how
only Eru's presence could put an end to it. Yet neither can comprehend
how something as great as Eru could possibly enter the world. We can,
but that is the whole point.
4. You also say that
God (or Eru) takes no direct action in "Lord of the Rings." Again, I think
your way off base. You talk of "Elrond's dicussion of fate and providence."
Well, who directs providence? In "The Fellowship of the Ring" Glidor and
Tom Bombadil both state that they met "by chance, if chance you call it."
The implication is that they, beings of far greater power and wisdom,
do not call it chance. Elrond also says at his council that "you were
called. Called I say, though I sent no message." The question remains,
then who sent the message?
When Gandalf (now
revealed as the White) converses with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas about
his fight with the Balrog, he says that he was "sent back." By whom? Not
the Valar, because the Valar only have custody over the earth, and Gandalf
had passed "out of time." Obviously Someone of far greater power sent
Gandalf back. Frodo, finally giving up on Mount Doom, is carried up by
Sam. The books says that either Frodo was so starved and wounded that
he was an easy burden or that Sam found some new strength. It could be
the first choice, but isn't probably the second? Once again, who gave
Sam that new strength?
Finally the big question
in "The Lord of the Rings" is: What did Gollum fall. First, he was in
the position to fall, only because Frodo took pity on him before. Now,
as to why he fell, there are two possible answers. One is simple blind
luck or "chance." But perhaps there is a better answer. Maybe we, simple
mortals that we are, would call it chance but more knowledgable beings
would call it something else.
Perhaps one of the
main characters in "The Lord of the Rings" is never directly mentioned,
yet always present to the observant reader.
Why wasn'y Tolkien
more direct? Two reasons. First, his "history" predated Revelation, thus
Eru couldn't be close God (Even the God of hte Jews is an awesome power
and far more distant than God as revealed to us by Jesus). The second
reason is that Tolkien wanted the story to be alble to read simply as
a story.
I'm sorry this e-mail
is so long, but I feel that you grossly misrepresented "The Lord of the
Rings"
Michael
NICE
JOB!
Subject: Lord of
the Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Jim
Dear Greg, What a
thoughtful essay. It was extremely well-informed and enlightening. Thanks
for writing it. The thrust was powerful and will always remain in the
back of my mind. (I'm an ordained minister and missionary in Hong Kong,
and have loved and read Tolkien's work for twenty years.) God bless you
and your excellent site!
Jim Keddy
(p.s. Your site has been in our bookmarks for a long time, but I read
your article because of the link with TORN.)
SO,
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Subject: Lord of
the Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Jeff
Dear sir:
This is the most horrible account of spirituality in the Lord of the Rings
I have ever read. Misinformed as well. Lewis in fact never mentioned his
"influence" on Tolkien and if you go back and read the Lewis biography
you will note that it was Tolkien who was the Christian influence on Lewis.
The Lord of the Rings in many ways was a dark book... written by a man
who had experienced many horrors in World War I, the death of his parents
at an early age, the life of an orphan, the hardship of the English in
WW2 and himself was living in the fading empire of Britiain with all its
loss of culture and such. His viewpoint is shaped by loss and loss is
the themes in his books. Tolkien in fact was influenced by his view on
the modern world: he believed we were moving into a post-Christian world.
That fear is present in his book. The redemption has happened several
times in his story, the miraculous has occured and now a modern age dawns
that no longer will "believe". I think professor Tolkien was more prophetic
than any Christian Theologian of his day. As a believer of the Lord Jesus
Christ (ie a Christian) and a fan of Professor Tolkien I found your article
to be lacking in understanding of the work, distorted in truth, and wholly
unacceptable as a commentary.
You wrote: "If Tolkien's
Christianity informs his work, then, it is an impoverished Christianity.
It is a Modernist Christianity, dominated by rationality, empiricism and
pragmatism. It is an ethical, non-spiritual Christianity. The T-mythology
posits, in fact, a post-Christian world: one that envisions the Ascension
as God's withdrawal from the world; one that envisions Satan and his servants
as thrown down, and men as the only remaining agents of evil, or good;
one that denies the miraculous, and emasculates the Holy Spirit. Where
is Grace, or the need for grace? Where is forgiveness? Where is prayer?
What we are left with is an Age in which Man is simply left to master
himself"
Tolkien writes: (In
a letter to Peter Hastings: The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkein, 1981 Allen
& Unwin, page 187 to 193)
"You have at any rate
paid me the compliment of taking me seriously; though I cannot avoid wondering
wether it is not 'too seriously', or in the wrong directions. The tale
is after all in the ultimate analysis a tale, a piece of literature, intended
to have a literary effect and not real history.... It's economics, science,
artifacts, religeon, and philosophy are defective, or at least sketchy...
Are there any 'bounds to a writers job' except those imposed by his own
finiteness? No bounds but the laws of contradiction , I should think.
But of course, humility, and an awareness of peril is required. A writer
may be basically 'benevolant' according to his lights (as I hope I have
been) and yet not be 'beneficent' owing to error and stupidity. I would
claim, if I did not think it presumptuos in one so ill instructed, to
have as one object the elucidation of truth, and the encouragement of
good morals in this real world, by the ancient device of exemplifying
them in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend to 'bring them home'. But,
of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not
be true, or they may be distorted: and the mirror I have made may be dim
and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have
'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely misunderstood, before
I should recant or rewrite anything. Great harm can be done, of course,
by this potent mode of 'myth' - especially willfully. The right to 'freedom'
of the sub-creator is no guarrantee among fallen men that it will not
be used as wickedly as is Free Will. I am comforted by the fact that some,
more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this Tale
or its feignings as a 'myth'."
You wrote: "SO WHAT"S
THE POINT?"
Tolkien writes: (In
a letter to Joanna de Bortadano: Ibid page 186) "The real theme to me
is something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality:
the mystery of the love of the world for a race 'doomed' to leave and
seemingly lose it; the anguish of the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to
leave it, until it's whole evil-aroused story is complete."
Tolkien writes: (In
a letter to Camilla Unwin: Ibid page 400) "So it may be said that the
chief purpose of life, for any one of us, is to increase according to
our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be
moved by it to praise and thanks. To do as we say in the Gloria in Excelsis:....
We praise you, we call you holy, we worship you, we proclaim your glory,
we thank you for the greatness of your splendour."
Tolkien writes: (In
a letter to Amy Ronald: Ibid page 401-402) "I pray for you - because I
have a feeling (more near a certainty) that God, for some ineffable reason
which to us may seem almost like humour, is so curiously read to answer
the prayers of the least worthy of His supplicants - if they pray for
others... What a dreadful, fearful, darkened, sorrow-laden world we live
in - especially for those of us who also have the burden of age, whose
friends and all they especially care for are afflicted in the same way.
Chesterton once said that it is our duty to keep the Flag of This World
flying: but it takes now a sturdier and more sublime patriotism that it
did then. Gandalf added that it is not for us to choose the times into
which we are born, but to do what we could do to repair them; but the
spirit of wickedness in high places is now so powerful and so many-headed
in its incarnations that there seems nothing more to do than personally
refuse to worship any of the hydra's heads...."
FEEDBACK
ON ESSAY
Subject: Lord of
the Rings
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: "Marc Louis Hebert"
Dear Pastor,
I have long been a very sentimental fan of tolkien. I am not a churchgoer
but often think of myself as very christian in my heart.
I am a big fan of
jesus and have read a little about the q manuscript and have spent some
time musing upon who was this man, etc...
Thank you very much
for bringing to light a very large number of christian spiritual connections
in tolkien which helped me see maybe why his work resonates so strongly
in me.
I can see you are
very knowledgeable in many fields like history and I cannot discuss these
topics at your level of thoroness altho i wish i could!
Anyway, I really like
the fact that you are able to accomodate tolkien and not condemn him even
tho he sorta cannibalises a lot of christian content. I am no expert but
tolkien was after some sort of truth. I think he just threw whatever he
knew into what he did best: make a story.
I read that later
in life he kinda got lost in philosophical or theological works. I can
see now, thanks to your web site, how he ended up shunted into these areas.
So, thank you so much
for such worthwhile material. And by the way I like the general disposition
of the web site. It shows plenty of care and respect towards the visitor.
You guys are doing it right, methinks.
Sincerely,
Marc Hebert Moncton, New Brunswick
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