The Amazing Spider-Man
Comix Index
“Sins Past� (issues #509-514)
written by J. Michael Straczynski
art by Mike Deodato
published by Marvel Comics
If you are unfamiliar with modern day comic books, you need to realize that these aren’t your father’s “funny books.� It’s high time that we started reviewing comic books since they have been the source material for many of our most popular movies and televison shows. Despite their decreased sales numbers, comic books still impact our culture (though, in Japan, the number one market on the planet, comic books have significantly higher sales and cultural impact).
It’s important to remember what got us hooked on comics in the first place: Larger than life heroes and villains in action/adventure serials; simple morality plays where good was good and bad was bad. These days, good isn’t as good as it seems and bad is a lot worse than it once was, but we still have to muddle through.
You see, the typical age of American comic book readers is 20+ , not 8+ like they were back in the day. Fanboys have grown up alongside the medium. Thus, the books have become increasingly sophisticated. Unfortunately, “sophisticated� usually means darker and harsher. This rush to insert realism has had the analogous effect of retroactively robbing us longtime fans of the medium of our fond memories of childhood.
However, there are lines not worth crossing, taboos not worth breaking, memories not worth tainting, not even for the sake of a riveting tale. That is the feeling that I was left with after reading J. Michael Straczynski’s pivotal story arc, “Sins Past.� In this storyline, JMS retroactively taints our memory of an innocent love and time.
Most of what the average person knows of Spider-Man is from the movies. For those who have followed the comics from early on, Peter Parker–Spider-Man’s alter ego–had a true, pure love before Mary Jane Watson. Her name was Gwen Stacy. However, she was lost to him when he was unable to save her during a battle with the Green Goblin (the first Spider-Man movie plays on this tale by having MJ, in the Gwen Stacy role, being tossed from the bridge. In the comics, unlike the movie, Spider-Man is unable to save her).
In this storyline, JMS fills in a bit of a continuity gap in the comics, explaining why Gwen Stacy jetted off to Europe for a time. Apparently, she had an affair with Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin, then went to Europe to have her babies, twins Gabriel and Sarah. The twins were raised believing Norman Osborn to be the saint who took them in and raised them while blaming Peter Parker, whom they believe to be their real father, for abandoning them. So, now grown up, they wish to kill Peter Parker and avenge their mother’s death, which they believe happened at his hands.
Yes, it is a complicated soap opera-esque story that is personal and engaging with flashes of his trademark sense of humor that characterized JMS’s Babylon 5.
At first I thought the spiritual connection that I was going to make was coming from the kids relationship with their father and their struggle against their own natures. They had been corrupted, due to their bodies’ fallen condition, by the blood of their father. Tainted by his sinful legacy, as it were. “The truth is in the blood,� Gabriel proclaims. The storyline paints an intriguing image of these lost, desperate souls attempting to find wholeness and salvation from death, by either embracing or rejecting their father. But that’s not the spiritual connection that I was left with.
After I was finished reading the story, I couldn’t help wondering about Gwen. In some ways, this changed my image of her. Hey, I grew up with these characters, so cut me some slack. In JMS’s hands, the reader is lead to feel Peter’s conflicted emotions, the sense of betrayal, the hurt, the tacit forgiveness and unquenchable love. It reminded me of the story of Jesus and the woman at the well as recounted by Michael Yaconelli in Messy Spirituality: “Looking at her long string of bad choices, many would consider her unredeemable, unsalvageable, unteachable, and beyond help. She hasn't just made a few mistakes; she has lived a lifetime of mistakes, enough to cause most to conclude her life is scarred beyond hope. She comes to the well at the middle of the day because respectable women come in the morning and she understands that she is no respectable woman.
“But Jesus respects her.
“Jesus doesn't see what everyone else sees.
“As far as Jesus is concerned, this woman is salvageable, teachable and redeemable. As far as Jesus is concerned, the woman with no future has a future; the woman with a string of failures is about to have the string broken. Jesus sees her present desire, which makes her past irrelevant.
“You don't suppose, do you, the same could be true for you and me? Our mistakes, our strings of failures, and what everyone else labels unredeemable may actually be redeemable? You don't suppose the mess we've made of our lives can be the place where we meet Jesus?�
We all have sins. Things in our past that we’ve done, or had done to us, to make us feel unworthy of ever being loved or clean again. But we can be loved where we are, in the middle of our messy lives. Loved, forgiven, and made whole. “The truth is in the blood.�
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“Sins Past� (issues #509-514)written by J. Michael Straczynski
art by Mike Deodato
published by Marvel Comics
If you are unfamiliar with modern day comic books, you need to realize that these aren’t your father’s “funny books.� It’s high time that we started reviewing comic books since they have been the source material for many of our most popular movies and televison shows. Despite their decreased sales numbers, comic books still impact our culture (though, in Japan, the number one market on the planet, comic books have significantly higher sales and cultural impact).It’s important to remember what got us hooked on comics in the first place: Larger than life heroes and villains in action/adventure serials; simple morality plays where good was good and bad was bad. These days, good isn’t as good as it seems and bad is a lot worse than it once was, but we still have to muddle through.
You see, the typical age of American comic book readers is 20+ , not 8+ like they were back in the day. Fanboys have grown up alongside the medium. Thus, the books have become increasingly sophisticated. Unfortunately, “sophisticated� usually means darker and harsher. This rush to insert realism has had the analogous effect of retroactively robbing us longtime fans of the medium of our fond memories of childhood.
However, there are lines not worth crossing, taboos not worth breaking, memories not worth tainting, not even for the sake of a riveting tale. That is the feeling that I was left with after reading J. Michael Straczynski’s pivotal story arc, “Sins Past.� In this storyline, JMS retroactively taints our memory of an innocent love and time.Most of what the average person knows of Spider-Man is from the movies. For those who have followed the comics from early on, Peter Parker–Spider-Man’s alter ego–had a true, pure love before Mary Jane Watson. Her name was Gwen Stacy. However, she was lost to him when he was unable to save her during a battle with the Green Goblin (the first Spider-Man movie plays on this tale by having MJ, in the Gwen Stacy role, being tossed from the bridge. In the comics, unlike the movie, Spider-Man is unable to save her).
In this storyline, JMS fills in a bit of a continuity gap in the comics, explaining why Gwen Stacy jetted off to Europe for a time. Apparently, she had an affair with Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin, then went to Europe to have her babies, twins Gabriel and Sarah. The twins were raised believing Norman Osborn to be the saint who took them in and raised them while blaming Peter Parker, whom they believe to be their real father, for abandoning them. So, now grown up, they wish to kill Peter Parker and avenge their mother’s death, which they believe happened at his hands.
Yes, it is a complicated soap opera-esque story that is personal and engaging with flashes of his trademark sense of humor that characterized JMS’s Babylon 5.
At first I thought the spiritual connection that I was going to make was coming from the kids relationship with their father and their struggle against their own natures. They had been corrupted, due to their bodies’ fallen condition, by the blood of their father. Tainted by his sinful legacy, as it were. “The truth is in the blood,� Gabriel proclaims. The storyline paints an intriguing image of these lost, desperate souls attempting to find wholeness and salvation from death, by either embracing or rejecting their father. But that’s not the spiritual connection that I was left with.After I was finished reading the story, I couldn’t help wondering about Gwen. In some ways, this changed my image of her. Hey, I grew up with these characters, so cut me some slack. In JMS’s hands, the reader is lead to feel Peter’s conflicted emotions, the sense of betrayal, the hurt, the tacit forgiveness and unquenchable love. It reminded me of the story of Jesus and the woman at the well as recounted by Michael Yaconelli in Messy Spirituality: “Looking at her long string of bad choices, many would consider her unredeemable, unsalvageable, unteachable, and beyond help. She hasn't just made a few mistakes; she has lived a lifetime of mistakes, enough to cause most to conclude her life is scarred beyond hope. She comes to the well at the middle of the day because respectable women come in the morning and she understands that she is no respectable woman.
“But Jesus respects her.
“Jesus doesn't see what everyone else sees.
“As far as Jesus is concerned, this woman is salvageable, teachable and redeemable. As far as Jesus is concerned, the woman with no future has a future; the woman with a string of failures is about to have the string broken. Jesus sees her present desire, which makes her past irrelevant.
“You don't suppose, do you, the same could be true for you and me? Our mistakes, our strings of failures, and what everyone else labels unredeemable may actually be redeemable? You don't suppose the mess we've made of our lives can be the place where we meet Jesus?�
We all have sins. Things in our past that we’ve done, or had done to us, to make us feel unworthy of ever being loved or clean again. But we can be loved where we are, in the middle of our messy lives. Loved, forgiven, and made whole. “The truth is in the blood.�
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20 Comments:
Comment #1
Typically, there are two kinds of event comics. The first kind are the big “shake up the status quo� storylines where characters essentially have a really bad day. Punctuated by deaths of supporting characters, the story promises that things will never be the same. That is, until the next creative team comes in and undoes it all (see X-Men and Batman, every other storyline).
The second kind are the “reset� storylines which return to the basics. The characters are stripped of years of clunky continuity (read: bad writing). Stories that explore the core of the character and what that character is about. And why they are heroes. (See Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One, Green Lantern: Rebirth).
This “event� falls somewhere in between.
Hmm. I like this idea of "reset" storylines which return to the basics, chucking out years of crap continuity and bad writing! I'D like to do that to Batman! But I certainly wouldn't do it like: "Batman: Year One", "The Dark Knight Returns", or anything Millerish. Fascists should NOT be commissioned to rewrite traditional comic books - I HAVE SAID IT ONCE, I SHALL SAY IT A THOUSAND TIMES!
A "socialist" version/reading of Batman would be FAR more justified (it would have to be laced with humour though, for all sorts of reasons, non-preachiness being one!) and it would definitely be more palatable to THIS reader! At least!
Why do you THINK comic books have lost sales, then, Maurice? It's because they haven't got any lefties (think of the amount of "anarchists", ie kids with piercings, there are out there - and a proportion of them are the real thing, too!) or any WOMEN, or anyone besides a very SMALL segment of men, reading them!!
Anyway, comics DO occasionally do interesting experiments! Some of which, for reasons I explained before, I only get to read ABOUT, not to read! Didn't they, in the 90s, I'm not sure if it was before or after that "death of Superman" fiasco, didn't they write some kind of weird "alternative" rewrite of Superman, which was basically set in Russia, and Superman was the Russian superhero, at the time when it was still Communist, the Soviet Union? And he was called, of course, Man of Steel - which is also what the greatest Russian dictator called himself - Stalin - it means Man of Steel!!!! (Or "the steel one"!)
(Interesting, eh - well, I mean, historically, that in one land there should be a man of power who literally CALLED himself that in his own language; and in another, not long after, two Jewish guys created a superhero with the same epithet? I wonder if it was coincidence? I don't think they spoke Russian! But that's obviously what gave the writers the idea... Now COME on, if you're so clever and such a comics "fanboy", tell me the title and author of the thing I mean! I'm CERTAIN I'm not dreaming....)
Pretty certain. Unless in my dreams I sometimes dream about some alternative comics universe, where many things are written that I'd want to read.
As for Spiderman: this Straczynski actually sounds like he's got some talent! Not so surprising, if he's worked on Babylon 5!
I've got less "holy memories" of Spiderman to mess up, because basically, I grew up with the cartoon FAR more than the comics - and I can remember it making me bounce up and down energetically on the sofa with much glee, as a six-year-old!! And THEN I mystified my mother and got a scolding for trying to recreate Spidey's webs from her sewing box cottons, by means of weaving them around chair legs!!
You think GIRL children aren't affected by this sort of thing - you think wrong!!
I thought having webs you could shoot around was a great idea.
If you can remember the ENTIRE continuity of Spiderman, you must read a lot of Marvel reprints, or be considerably older than I am!
We could do with a lot more "funny books", though. But the modern humour should be very sophisticated and work on many levels, like those of the CGI cartoons, some of which you have reviewed, not always appreciatively - but the box office don't lie!
And by the way, about this "in the blood" thing, don't shout it around too much, or you'll get all the Christian Identists - ie white supremacists - coming around here!
"These days, good isn’t as good as it seems and bad is a lot worse than it once was", yeah... WHY, Maurice?
If you're going to have "goodies" in a story, they might as well be good... And DO the "baddies" have to be QUITE so irredeemable?
Though I'm not saying anything about this new Spiderman, because I haven't read it, not at all, and because I respect the people behind Babylon 5, because when I watched that, I liked it.
Neah, I'm talking about these crass, evil things that mainly DC do, the @**kers. Miller and Moore - the usual suspects! Morrison! All the M&Ms!
In the old days, villains could be cheeky, defiant, nasty, the works... But how GRATUITOUS were they, ever?
Anyway, if you're going to have a Christian sense of anything in comics, you need, basically, a feeling, that maybe the villains of a favourite four-colour rag COULD redeem themselves, or be redeemed, under certain circumstances... All factors being favourable!
Miller and Moore and Morrison take all that away; and replace it with pessimism and evil and a lot of lack of knowledge about how the human psyche actually works, what motivates criminals, how criminals think, what their taboos actually are... You name it, they don't know it, have not one clue, and are reduced to the STUPIDEST fantasies, of what one anarchist site I was reading recently (it was about prisoners in jail, not comics) aptly termed "folk devils".
The kind created in people's imaginations by a right-wing ruling class and their press!
Inhuman caricatures that don't exist. Not even in comics do they exist. Not in MY kind of comics.
i have a question that i want to pose to you: how would a socialist view the gospel message of Christ?
i ask this, in all seriousness, because i think the gospel message is read one way through the lens of a capitalistic society and is heard an entirely different way from, for example, the perspective of the poor.
as for the "why" about good not being as good these days, i have a couple of theories.
one, we can't tolerate heroes. not pure, iconic heroes. they seem too good to be true. look how often in society we'll build up heroes, put them on a pedestal, only to tear them down or prove they have feet of clay.
two, good guys are boring. uninteresting. think of how often in movies that the bad guy seems to steal the show. (off the top of my head, think about the jack nicholson's joker to michael keaton's batman). actually, more often, the good guys suffer from poor or lazy writing, because bad guys are more fun to write.
How would a socialist view the gospel message of Christ - or how would it be viewed in a socialist society - 2 different things!
Well, in the first instance, a socialist wouldn't think in the terms of Protestant individualism that has informed most of Western society since the sixteenth century or thereabouts. A socialist would not believe that because we are all (well many are) capable of reading a book, that makes us (or rather a paterfamilias) "responsible" for every aspect of our lives, leading to fraught competition, lack of co-operation, hierarchy that is little less strict tham the old feudal model, and a "retributive" system of justice! (As some rather learned people have been discussing on Kevin's second home, www.clarion-journal.ca. It didn't have to be like that, apparently, so the Christian radicals say, but it has been, in Western society, since the Emperor Constantine - everyone has their own idea of who started the rot in anything!)
Modern American society seems to emphasize this "acquisitive" and "individualist" form of Christianity too. It was what the Pilgrim Fathers believed; that's why they gave their sons names like "Cotton" and "Increase" (Mather), and, well, basically, it's what the entire nation's philosophy has been built on, apart from the more idealistic and a-Christian liberalism of the Enlightenment.
As for whether Jesus was really a socialist or not - well, socialists like him: they call him "The Workman of Nazareth". But he DID say that "the poor will always be with us", and that is what socialists, Marxists and non, just us little grass roots, are not prepared to accept, and are thinking and working to abolish.
Indeed, on that subject, there's a folk singer (that's my other hobby!) on my favourite net radio folk site, www.theacousticstage.net - THIS IS WORTH A VISIT FOLKS! HEAR SOMETHING DIFFERENT!
Well there's one guy, who's written a contemporary folk song, it's a good song, entitled "Stand Up, Stand Up for Judas", because of precisely those sentiments, because he feels that Jesus didn't go far enough and wasn't prepared to be political, whereas his betrayer, Judas, might well have been, says this singer. But I won't go that far, because I don't think there is enough historical, or biblical evidence to prove that Judas Iscariot was a left-wing political activist. Yes. The singer is Dick Gaughan, off his album "A Different Kind of Love Song." The song is actually by Leon Rosselson, another superb lefty folkie!
Really my personal view is that religion of any kind isn't really an answer to social problems; well, I mean, it never yet has been, historically: it's more a sort of hobby (would be my definition!), and the best thing to do would not be to make too much of an idol of it...
Most social progress has actually been made by philosophical methods other than those which are religious. But actually, to the people of the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, Christ's ideas, I'm sure, came as an utter revelation and a novelty to them, something nobody'd ever heard before, ever, whereas nowadays I think people are tempted to dismiss them as a cliche and therefore insincere, as we've all seen Christians and governments and George Bushes who don't practise really what they preach... Or what their "personal Saviour" preached, anyway...
Heroes - yes, Maurice. I think you know what I think here! I've already said on one of your other pages why I don't think that MODERN society/pop culture/high culture is very tolerant of heroes, whereas decades and centuries ago, indeed, it WAS - but back then, throughout all the classes, there was this notion, this ideal of human progress and improvement, wasn't there? To a culture that kids itself that it's already arrived, why would it promote that idea any more? Or why would its corrupt ruling class?
They might call it postmodernism but I call it something else. So do the guys at wsws.org. Check out their Arts section and movie review column, won't you.
Good guys CAN be a bit boring! It's a bit like teacher, in a schoolroom, admonishing us to behave, be quiet, repress ourselves, etc... This could be VERY applicable to a "cop" type of hero like the Batman; that is why the old comics and old spinoffs needed the villains and used them as a very effective way to diffuse tension through clowning, back-talking and rule-breaking. It was like in the TV series; Batman and Robin were the straight men; the Joker, the Penguin (the consummate funny bad guy of the Fox series) and any most other villain who happened to be there, were the comedians! It's an old old formula, much used in music hall and all that!! Authority vs. Mucker-uppers. I liked it! Nothing better!
(Only the heroes of that old series were very attractive too, I found, in their po-faced way... They were just sweet!)
Now. Links between the old spinoffs and the new, related to what you are saying! (I can manage that....!) Look at how in the old TV series, it was ALWAYS the most accomplished actors (ie Burgess Meredith), who played the VILLAINS. Less accomplished actors with a smaller range, ie Adam West and Burt Ward, played the heroes. Well, what were they known for after that? Nothing much really...
And the same with the Burton Batman movies? Who played the TOP bad guys (in my mind, the greatest flippin' comic book villain archetypes of all TIME!), the Joker, and the Penguin?? Jack Nicholson and Danny DeVito, who both had/have an impressive track record behind them (though it was DeVito who had more practice at comedy. I personally thought he was an excellent choice for the Penguin: only the script and the dialogue was not - apparently DeVito was a demon adlibber on the set, though (as was Mr Meredith! Only on the TV series they let him keep his ad libs in - which is what MADE it!).. and none of DeVito's were used... So much for modern direction, rubbish, I call it!
And who played Batman? A MODERATELY successful, mild comic actor with quite a small range, Michael Keaton, and about the only "scary" thing he'd done before was that Beetlejuice, which is probably why he got picked...
SO, you see, the Hollywood rules don't change! Not of casting and all that. It's just the scripts that are worse!
Why do you have to be a better actor to play a villain? Well, if the thing HANGS on the portrayal of its villains...
And of course it depends on the type of hero!
One thought though: IF, now IF - and you should have thought of this, mate - IF it IS true, that "pure, iconic heroes" are "boring" and have to be "proved to have feet of clay" - WHY has no-one to this VERY day succeeded in doing any such thing with Jesus?? (The "worst" thing that they could come up with so far, was that he had it off with Mary Magdalen in "The Last Temptation" and in the background plot to "The Da Vinci Code", big deal!)
Why does no-one want to make movies about an "evil Jesus", then? Why didn't Mel Gibson (well, I know he's a committed Christian so he wouldn't)... but why wasn't there any Hollywood pressure on him, then, to make up a Jesus who defended himself against the Roman soldiers by means of kung fu and chopping their arms off, Kill Bill style? That'd attract teenage boys to see it, wouldn't it??
Yeah, I'm being ridiculous, but to make a point!
Obviously there are some icons which it is less OK to tamper with than others.
But I suppose they can justify it by saying: "Oh, Jesus was a god, so no-one can be like him anyway."
And if there is a "human" character, who we, like me, think it might be a bit easier to emulate morally, such as a comic book hero - all you have to do is have your own "code" and stick to it - well, They don't like that, any more, in case people start doing it! Is what I think!
Hence all the zeroes in modern cultural products.
The shadow elite want to weaken our culture!
Anyway, I don't see much of a point of a story with two opposing villains in it and that's all. Not unless it's "Freddy and Jason". Something about on that level - WWF wrestling for movie baddies.
Come on, Maurice! You were asking, I answered!
Didn't I answer your questions about socialism enough? Or in the correct regard?
And what about those vague memories I have about a weird "Russian" Superman book, which I never bought, due I daresay to lack of funds! Which was that one then? Was it the "Man of Steel" one?
It DID have something about a Russian Superman in it, didn't it?
Or am I REALLY dreaming??
(Of far more interesting comic books than have yet been published!)
Maurice?
Am I dreaming?
Anyway, Maur. HOW does it make a hero more "interesting", to make him "less good"??
And what do we mean by "less good"? Do we mean venial? Would it, for instance, be "MORE INTERESTING" to make Bruce Wayne an Enron-style stock market embezzler??
I mean, if we want "less good" in a hero, how are we going to define "less good"?? Do we REALLY mean, as Frank Miller seems to, "more violent and less compassionate", more FASCIST, indeed?
That seems to be HIS area of "interest"!
Yes - it all depends on what you're "interested" in, doesn't it...
Why couldn't "less good" or "less perfect", in a hero, mean MORE interested in sex? Having pecadillos of THAT nature?
How about a Clintonesque Batman??
(The Joker whispered that idea in my ear!)
He likes sex, too! Despite Frank Miller's efforts... ah now, you should have read that book, "The Many Lives of the Batman", for it has a telling interview with Miller...
To say that all the characters of the Batman comics (with the exception of the Catwoman, one s'poses!) The Joker and the hero himself, were "sexless"... WHAT a crock!!
Just shows a VERY immature attitude, in my mind!
I would prefer the sort of "teen" attitude that had a fascination with sex... however puerile it was.. To Miller's deathly approach.
I know the kinds of "imperfection" I can tolerate!!
warren ellis (www.warrenellis.com) said in a recent "bad signal" that:
"I kind of worry about the collective mental age and/or
sheltered nature of a field where people think IDENTITY
ARSERAPE FUNNIES, COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE
BUMTHREAT and AVENGERS DISSECTED are somehow
"dark," and any character with a hint of disaffection is
somehow "cynical". People have forgotten what these words
mean, and are terrified that someone's going to rape their
overextended childhoods.
"It's all cycles anyway. And the current cycle of superhero
work out of Marvel and DC is a pretty vanilla version of the
"serious superhero" comics. An actual full-dose version of
the "dark" superhero comic would probably send some
people blind, these days."
liz, you seem to be doing just fine without me. plus, it's convention season, so i'm away from the computer for stretches (like the rest of this week).
have you picked up any warren ellis? he's about as left as you can get. and he's a brit. and he's done some remarkable work himself (transmetropolitan, for example.)
i'm trying to think of the superman book that you are referring to. i'm pretty sure it was an "elseworlds" book, but i can't think of it right off.
Back again! Oh look, a load of post(S)! BTW: in my previous post above, I meant "venal" (meaning corrupt) as in "venal Enron Batman", (postulated) NOT "venial", which of course I know means minor or forgiveable! (With regard to sin!)
Slip of the keyboard!
No worries, Maurice! (Which rhymes, or nearly, if one were to pronounce the latter "Morries"!)
With the matter of you having to leave me to my own devices for a while! I'm used to it in real life... Constant loneliness! I can work with all these things because I have to...
Warren Ellis? No, I've never heard of him!? (Though funnily enough, the name KIND of rings a bell... Maybe he's done sth. for TV!!) A lefty Brit - graphic novelist, you say??
(Well Alan Moore says he's that, but he's not! There's all sorts POSING as socialists these days, you know! Or even left-wing anarchists - when they're really not.... But this guy could be!)
Oh well, better check out that site!
Never read or seen "Transmetropolitan". But is it, not superhero or sci fi, but like Robert Crumb comics or something like that, or Wizard of Id or Doonesbury plus nastier sense of humour??
Yes, THANKS for your considering my weird enquiries, Maurice... You have the access (and the funds! And the patience with the medium as it stands!) to know all these other books and their contents, which I just haven't caught... So, any "tips" - or descriptions, or "no you weren't dreaming"s... MUCH appreciated!!
"Elseworlds" book, eh? So that's a whole series, is it?? Of, like, alternative Earths, or comic book worlds, in which alternative things happen... So, in one, it has happened, that Superman is/was the Soviet Russian superhero, JUST like I vaguely remembered... And is there ANOTHER which deals with Gotham and in which Bruce Wayne is the villain and Mr Joker (whatever his real name is, and there could be rival theories on that!) is the HERO!
Oh I WISH!! (I thought of that idea AGES ago, you know!!)
(I know that there was one book, what was it called "Night of the Demon" or something unpromising-sounding - but that was about Batman ending up in another dimension and falling in love and marrying, wasn't it?? And he stayed there and had a son! A slightly more positive outcome for him, than what either Miller or Dini propose, in the end!)
Do find me the title of the Superman one, though, dear chap. I so want to buy it, now!
And can you go as far as recommending a good (reasonably-priced!!) back-issues/vintage comics by mail vendor??
Right: let me tackle your first new post last!
Oh dear, I DID provoke it, didn't I! Just by saying that I would prefer "puerile sex" to Miller's brand of death-metal! I had in mind something more like, I dunno, South Park, or something!
Does Mr Bruce let you post nasty words on here like those ones you've put? "Arserape" is I think a word that would be non grata with most Christians... I've been trying to be good, so far, personally, and replace any offensive words with asterisks or suggestions...
I'm not quite sure what your mate here means... "People have forgotten what these words mean" - what, "cynical"??? I DONT' THINK THEY'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT THAT MEANS - THEY SEE IT ALL THE TIME!! In movies, comics, etc. Usually the cynicism is directed "at" the audience, however, not "with" them!
"The current cycle of superhero work out of Marvel and DC is a pretty vanilla version of the 'serious superhero' comics" - what IS he ON about, Mor? (You dump this stuff on here without so much as an explanation!)
Is he meaning: "Oh, it's not so gloomy now as it was in the 90s!" No - and we DON'T want those days back!
"An actual full-dose version of the 'dark' superhero comic"... is precisely WHAT, Maurice? Warren?
PERSONALLY I don't want that sort of junk! I'd rather that comics regained THEIR SENSE OF HUMOUR AND OF PROPORTION.
The title "Countdown to Infinite Bumthreat" made me giggle! As did some of these others... But, Maurice, there are obviously no books called by these titles... So it is Mr Ellis' send-up of the actual titles? Must go to the site!
I don't know if I'll like it though, love... Because I have this FEELING, that both you, and he, whoever he is, have this fundamental MISUNDERSTANDING of what it means to be "lefty" or "progressive" or even "oppositional".
IT DOESN'T MEAN "CYNICAL", MAURICE!! Or merely "disaffected".
It doesn't! To be a socialist, anyway - rather than some very nihilistic variety of anarchist, of which there are a few - you have to be POSITIVE!
I say so! And if you go to a VERY respected and widely-read socialist news and current affairs and arts analysis site (very serious of course - no humour to be found there, its only real shortcoming!)... SUCH AS, www.wsws.org, which I keep TELLING you to check out, and which you're going to HAVE to, sooner or later (Kevin has!)...
Well they will tell you the same, medear!! Ie, it WON'T DO, to just be trendily cynical, and write swearwords all over the place... and think that's somehow... alternative.
(That's like saying drugs are "alternative", as well - when they're not!)
We don't mean "sappy positive". We're not talking Pollyanna outlook, far from it. We mean constructive positive. Positive with a plan, and most certainly, an alternative, something that's at least been a bit thought out, to the "status quo".
Otherwise, all "dissidents" out there might as well not bother! Or they can go and rob banks and tell the police and the establishment to F*** off, like the Joker!! Like Ronnie Biggs! (I was sad though, that for some reason, probably medical, the latter guy had to come back to GB and hand himself into the hands of the unforgiving and hypocritical authorities! If our society hadn't gone through Thatcherism, he'd probably have a pardon by now! Pardon for Biggs, I say!!)
Socialism or crime. The only two viable "alternative views".
That's what it all boils down to.
Just been there, Maurice! Don't like it! An ugly and amateurish site. He hasn't got the bandwidth to support all the crap he's got up there. Half his links don't load.
Weirdo, if you ask me!!
I don't actually LIKE all these "fringe weirdos", Maurice! I don't know why you keep sending me to them! Just because I said I liked the Joker! Doesn't mean I'm gonna like THEM...
Writing "f*ck" all the time, and "whorebagger" won't make you a left-winger, you know!!
Sounds like quite the opposite to me - a misogynist!
No, let's get this clear. About the only "antisocial" weirdos I have time for are rebellious, hopefully working-class crooks. And I hope you now know for why!
Druggies, technopunkers, other weird anarchists... I got no patience with 'em!!
Anarcho-socialists, yes, and thoughtful anarchists, of the type of the author Matthew Hall, or that New York artist that stood up against Giuliani, Robert Lederman, yes.
Anyway, I can't read that bloody thingie. "Badsignal". He only allows subscribers to read it - and that's not going to be ME!
I DON'T think freakos are necessarily "subversive", Maurice. Some of them I find quite boring! Now I think that writers like Joanne ROWLING are subversive... Quite a conservative idea of subversion, you might think, with a small c as we Brits say, because of course we have a Conservative party....
Well maybe... But I like my stuff subtle and coded, half the time, anyway! So that I can read it and think "this is directed at me - the one with eyes attuned to see and ears fine-tuned to hear" - like with all those "gay" messages in the cartoons we were discussing! Trouble is, the Right is wise to those too, now! Phooey! I SO like my fun private!!
(It was a trait I developed at school...)
Like I said, flaming technopunkers!
Maurice??
!!
Do check out my last raving - completely off the original point, as usual - on - I think - it's the end of the "Batman" review!!
Don't worry, I'll do a xanga, soon.
ah, liz.
the "titles" were a send up of all of the "event" comics coming out this year. they do all sort of blur together after a while. the point, as i took it, was that dark superhero storylines cycle.
but there is little serious exploration or pushing of boundaries going on in the media right now.
warren is more anarchist than socialist (i probably should have warned you). though you have to allow for not every leftist fitting into your narrow constraints of what a leftist should be.
(the sound you hear is a can of worms)
Er... I don't have THAT narrow constraints of what a leftist should be:-
1) I'm NOT a Marxist, ie atheist, ie dialetical materialist - but I am "inspired" by them, ie I take their "class theory of history" practically as gospel, OK? (Though I don't see how it necessarily ties in with atheism! I think that must be a historical accident.)
Marxists actually believe everything to be "scientific", ie their version of socialism is "scientific socialism", which they seem to interpret according to a very limited 19th century paradigm. (I've already ticked off some of them for being stuck in the mud!!)
For me, nothing is THAT "scientific", ie it's not PREDICTABLE, because I subscribe to CHAOS theory, therefore everything in the universe is something of a big mess, therefore there are no guarantees - and the Divine Feminine and the sainted archetypes are the only things holding it together FOR ME!
I'm just as inspired by other old-time socialists - eg. Robert Tressell (my alltime hero), eg. Oscar Wilde, eg William Morris.
BUT THE MARXISTS HAVE THE BEST ECONOMIC THEORY - relating to capitalism, corporations, globalization etc - so that's why I'm sticking with them there - to learn from THAT part of their "lore"!
2) Even though I'm NOT a Marxist, I always like to have SOME structure to leftist thought. After all, I was once quite a neat and tidy schoolgirl... So if people think that the Left is just one big gigantic malcontents' ragbag, or like a school desk full of junk food wrappers that never gets cleared out... I beg to differ there!
(Leave that to the Right - they've got the ragbags!)
3) I KNOW what anarchists are: I NEARLY was one myself, and I still sympathize with them (the GENUINE kind) and I read all about anarchism at my own instigation, whenI was still at school; the proper, original, 19th-century kind: Proudhon. Kropotkin. The Christian anarchists such as Tolstoy.
The REAL kind!!
4) The reason I say REAL kind, is because the Left wing seems to have been infiltrated, in part, by all sorts of Rightists these days. The ones that seem to have inspired our "friend" Alan Moore, for one. (They've probably been inspired by the Libertarians, like Ayn Rand - viz. South Park comments on same! I STILL haven't read any of her books, I always seemed to manage to avoid that without intending to... But the more I read about her on the Net, the more I come to detest her!)
(The Trotskyists say the Left's been compromised by internal sellouts, but I don't know.. I think those Rightists are just put in there by someone, to mess us all up in here!)
Like for example, you CAN be a RIGHT-WING ANARCHIST. You certainly CAN, because there have already been examples. Nasty ones. Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber for one. Right-wing misanthropic nihilist. (And yet HE was intellectual enough - look what he forced those papers to print!)
5) Yeah, but I MEAN, if you think THAT's "anarchist", or more to the point of it, LEFT-WING... you might as well think that a movie like "Fight Club" is left-wing... when it's not!
It's malcontent, sure. And it's misanthropic nihilist thoughtless primitivist garbage, for another thing!
There IS a difference.
Case rests.
As for that Warren Rabbit or whatever he's called, I can't yet for the LIFE of me figure what he's all about!!
Doubtless I will find out some day soon! After I've finished vanquishing the hungry ghost of Ayn Rand!
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