Wednesday, January 11, 2006

Hostel

—1. Overview
—2. Cast and Crew
—3. Photo Pages
—4. Trailers, Clips, DVDs, Books, Soundtrack
—5. Posters (Horror Films)
—6. Production Notes (pdf)
—7. Spiritual Connections
—8. Presentation Downloads


enlargeWhat does it mean when Hostel becomes the new mainstream, when what is essentially a slasher film unseats two relatively innocuous crowd pleasers like King Kong and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as the top-grossing movie in the land? Those were the first questions that ran through my mind as I sat in my car—doors locked—and tried to pull my thoughts together after a late night viewing of this film.

Once the initial shock and unease began to pass, however, it dawned on me that rather stretch the boundaries of morality, cinema, and good taste; this film seemed designed to reinforce them instead. I know, that sounds preposterous—Eli Roth and Quentin Tarantino as the new voices of conservatism. But before you write me off as a crank, let me state my case.

Hostel has a fairly simple plot: Three guys—Paxton, Josh, and Oli—are backpacking across Europe and looking for a good time, a final fling before moving on to more serious rites of passage like bar exams and graduate theses. The problem is, they just can’t seem to hook up with the ladies. Out of desperation, they visit one of Amsterdam’s famous red light establishments. Paxton and Oli eagerly sample the wares, leaving the more reticent Josh to wander the halls as he waits for them to finish up. The interior of the bordello is cast in an eerie blue glow, and from behind every door comes the sounds and silhouettes of passion. At one point, Josh accidentally enters a room where a dominatrix is having her way with a client. Pay attention, folks. Considering what is to come, this is the proverbial gun over the mantle. Sooner or later it is bound to go off.

enlargeLater that night, our heroes meet a Slovakian guy who tells them about a legendary hostel just outside of Bratislava where they can get any girl they want. All they have to do is show up. Thinking they have hit the jackpot, the guys literally catch the next train out of town.

When they arrive in Bratislava, everything is as promised—girls everywhere, and all of them as willing as they are beautiful. The boys hook up right away. There’s just one problem: The morning after their first night of partying, Oli is missing. It isn’t long before we know what happened to him, but Josh and Paxton are still in the dark. After a day of searching, they decide he must have left with his new girlfriend. So they go out for one more night on the town before catching the train to Barcelona.

That night, both of them are drugged by their respective dates. Josh manages to stumble back to the hostel while Paxton accidentally locks himself in the back room of the bar for the night, a mishap that turns out to be a blessing in disguise.

enlargeIn the morning, Josh wakes up to a living hell. He has no idea where he is, but he’s handcuffed to a chair, about to become the victim of some sort of homicidal sadist. When Paxton discovers Josh is missing, he tracks down their dates from the night before and demands to know where his friends are. The girls tell him that Josh and Oli have become part of an art show exhibit. From the looks on their faces, you just know this isn’t going to be pretty, but they agree to take Paxton to it.

When Paxton arrives at the so-called exhibit—which is located in an abandoned factory on the edge of town—he is quickly taken captive as well. As it turns out, all three friends have fallen prey to a group billing itself as “Extreme Hunting.� Turns out sick and twisted guys from around the world are willing to pay big bucks for the opportunity to play serial killer for a day. The hostel, the girls, the Slovakian guy in Amsterdam, they’re all part of an elaborate bait and switch operation.

Handcuffed to a chair, Paxton’s fate appears to be sealed. Lucky for him, his “client� isn’t so handy with a chainsaw, and rather than dismember Paxton as planned, he takes himself out instead. Now all Paxton has to do is find a way out of this hellhole. He emerges from his torture chamber to find himself in a hallway of horrors. Everything is cast in an eerie green glow, and from behind every door comes the screams and shadows of pain and horror. I’m not sure about Paxton, but suddenly my mind flashed back Josh’s experience in the Amsterdam bordello. This is precisely where Roth’s conservative message begins to emerge.

enlargeAt the beginning of the film, these three young bucks were just starting down the road of fleshly desire. To them, the world was nothing more than an adult playground, a place to roam and rut to their heart’s content. Nobody loses; no one gets hurt. But their apparently innocent foray is brought to an abrupt halt by a group of men who’ve clearly been roaming this playground for a lot longer than Paxton and the boys. Rather than find satisfaction for their desires though, these men have discovered that nothing in this playground truly satisfies. To gratify their ever-increasing appetites, they must go deeper and deeper into ever more dark and disturbing places. Enough is never enough.

At no point is the final destination of this journey made clearer than when, en route to his escape, Paxton encounters a man who is about to make his first kill. Mistaking Paxton for a fellow Extreme Hunter, he asks him how his experience was. Did he do it fast or slow? What does Paxton recommend? He talks about how he arrived at this point, how he has traveled everywhere, tried everything, but nothing seems to satisfy—until this. He hopes this will be the ultimate thrill, the thing he has been searching for. All Paxton can do is stare at the guy in mute horror, perhaps realizing that he could be staring at a reflection of his future self if he allows his own slide into lust and hedonism to continue. I don’t think I need to bother summarizing the rest of the flick here. You can probably guess the main details—Paxton gets out, he gets revenge, he goes into therapy. The key point is the parallel Roth draws between Paxton’s Amsterdam experience and this pit of despair. He appears to be saying that the first inevitably leads to the second.

I don’t know about you, but this sounds like the sort of cautionary tale you’d expect from your local pastor, who likely would have based his message on Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death,� and titled his sermon, “Those who live by the thrill; die by the thrill.� But who would have expected such a staunchly conservative message from Tarantino and Roth, best known for promoting sin rather than issuing warnings against it? What’s going on here? Have these guys suddenly gone religious? If so, they’ve done it in a way that only they can. After all, Roth appears to get as much of a thrill out of depicting pain and gore as his characters get from inflicting it. And this is exactly where the path between people like Roth and people like me begins to diverge.

Making a film that warns people about the perils of messing around with lust is one thing. But when you use the very behaviors you are warning against to make that statement, things have a way of backfiring on you. People who are sophisticated enough to get your message will get it. But let’s be honest, most people who gravitate toward films like Hostel are not sophisticated enough to get it, and so all this film really accomplishes is further desensitization, moving the audience one step further down the very road Roth is warning them against traveling.

But if graphic portrayals of sex and violence aren’t an effective deterrent, how do we talk about them? How do we portray the consequences of sin artistically without creating a fascination with the very sins we are warning people against? That’s a difficult question for any artist, no matter what moral or spiritual point of departure they are working from, and I am certain it is a question that even Roth and Tarantino wrestle with from time to time. I don’t hope to offer a definitive solution here, except to recognize that censorship can often be just as damaging—and just as effective at creating a fascination with sin—as its counterpart. At the risk of taking the easy way out, I think it all comes down to the individual choice of filmmakers and viewers alike. It’s just that some people are better equipped to make such choices than others…

So what does it mean when Hostel becomes the new mainstream? Many people will probably write it off as nothing more than another entry in the voyeuristic gore fest category inhabited by films like the Saw franchise and The Devil’s Rejects. Just another sign that our society is slipping further and further into moral oblivion. But that’s too easy, I think. Even though Hostel carries a clear message that getting off on other people’s pain is not healthy, for a movie like this to succeed as well as it has, clearly a lot of people do get off on this sort of sadistic cruelty. Which leads to the uncomfortable question of whether my own motives for viewing this film were truly “pure.� Was I really just there as a critic—a minister of God, even—or do I somehow get off on this sort of thing as well?

Whether Hostel gives you the thrills you’re looking for or prompts you to point your finger at a society you feel is hopelessly corrupt, I hope that it also prompts you to look inward. A film like Hostel can tell us a lot about the world we live in, but if we’re really honest, it can reveal far more about our true selves.

— Overview

36 Comments:

Reviews by Mike Furches said...

Thanks for the review Kevin, my son in law saw the movie and I will make sure to refer him to this review. Of course the views of many regarding horror, within the Christian Circles will be quick to jump on anyone for seeing movies like this. I just don't know if they get it. For a discussion and blasting I am getting for seeing horror films check out: http://www.thematforums.com/myforum/?show_topic=12528&forum_id=11 There is a very long answer, I think on page 4 of the thread but some just don't get it.

Great job and I'm planning on seing the movie this weekend.

4:53 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Thanks, Mike. I definitely searched my conscience prior to viewing this film. I don't make a steady diet of such things, so if I do go to them, it is usually out of a ministry motive. In this case, I had a free night to catch a film. I was thinking about Munich, but when I saw it had already been reviewed three times on this site and Hostel had yet to be reviewed--even though it was the number one film in the land--my mind was made up. I'd sort of been targeting the film earlier anyway. As distasteful as some elements of this film are, I think it's really important that Christians have something to say about it, and the only way to speak about it with integrity is to watch it. If people are giving you grief, just tell them that even the folks at Focus on the Family went to see it. That should keep them quiet for a while...

8:55 AM  
Anonymous said...

Censorship, once again, is the Christian take on things here. Tell people not to see it, and hope they're intelligent (presumably as much as the voice of reason) enough not to go see it. Was this movie ultra-violent, with extreme scenes of explicit gore? yes, of course it was, and it just raised (or lowered, however you see it) the bar in the direction of voilence. Horror fans will praise him for it, you of course won't.
"Have Roth and Tarontino gone religious?" just because a story has a moral to it, doesn't mean it's relegious, after all there are those of us who consider the Bible stories of characters who learn something valuable to life. This film, has brought into perspective for those most likely to see it the question of morality, fear the notion of the "ugly American," and how real death is. There is genocide in other parts of the world (Yugoslavia etc.) but our veged-out short attention span kids can't fathom what others, else where, go through - movies if anything give them an expirience by proxy. Some people need to be hit over the head with it. Kids today need to be hit over the head: Tarontino and Roth are willing to do that. And, as a final note, Christianity isn't the mindset of everyone. I've met sophisticated people who believe the notion of a bearded cosmic God is ludicrus. Let's look outside the box people.

4:00 PM  
Justin said...

I think if they made a movie of the book of Judges, it would satisfy any horror fan. There's gore in it too. The deal is to not to stick ourselves on a pedastal and dictate what the world does or does not do, but to meet them where they are. I'm afraid I myself wouldn't know where the line is, though I guess it would hav something to do with not physically or enjoyingly being a part of anything sinful. I am happy that you went to see this movie for ministry purposes. These type of movies are very popular over in Japan right now, and as Japan continues to define the horror genre in America and guys like tarantino and roth continue to do their takes on them, we will definitely need to find a way to reach the horror lovers.
I'm afraid I loved Saw myself but the second one didn't really do it for me. This movie scares the bejesus out of me though, cause it's not about fear in dark hallways a la Friday the 13th, it's about torture in the light, it's about the darkness a mind can reach in it's pursuit of pleasure. And honestly the few previews I've seen have caused me to tear up. Places like this really exist, that's where Roth got his idea for the movie from. A place where people could go and shoot a person for money. He just took it to the extreme by implementing knives and chainsaws. This kind of darkness doesn't thrillingly scare me so much as just make me want to cry. Its not beautiful, it's not even an adrenaline rush.
That said people are still gonna see it, and still gonna need some kind of christian mindset on it. So it's good you guys are goin out and trying to provide it. I just hope it doesn't get so bad that even one with a ministry mindset can't go. the movie 8 Millimeter comes to mind. It could get that bad, and the further we go, the closer that seems.

I saw Roth and Tarantino on Kimmel, I don't think they had any religious reasons for it. I think in fact Tarantino acts as if it's just what he thinks it is, a disturbing fright fest.

Good review though, and great thoughts on the correlations, though I think they were accidental, and no one but one with a christian mind would probably even notice it.

8:33 PM  
Justin said...

Another thing that kinda worries me is that there is more than likely gonna be an unrated version of this movie when it comes out on DVD...i mean how graphic will that be, there's no limit.

It kinda makes me think of that one time I ran across pictures of Jeffrey Dahmer's vctims posted ont he internet, what they looked like after he was done with them. And the bestter we get with effects and makeup and stuff, the closer to the real thing things are starting to look. And if American teenagers continue to disaffect themselves from the throwing up that comes with seeing gore...how deep will their inhibitions against performing those acts be themselves.

I don't know...but Dahmer definitely sickened me back from going there. A good thing. And it's pretty cool that the guy most likely went to heaven if he wasn't lying on television. The hope is these guys that go to these hostels could too.

8:58 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Anonymous: Please re-read the review. I'm not advocating censorship at all. I'm saying it comes down to individual choice. If I believed in censorship I wouldn't have viewed this film, I would have protested it.

And hey, even though this is serious stuff, we can have fun discussing it, too, can't we? I realize not everyone shares my point of view, but I'm okay with that. I don't believe in a cosmic bearded God either. Such a definition is far too limiting in my opinion. What do you think God is like?

10:46 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Justin: Haven't seen Saw, although I intend to. I remember thinking it was a very clever concept. I like to be frightened, but I'm not much for gore. Hard to separate the two these days though.

I'm not sure if its ever been confirmed that the "thrill kill" places really exist, although I do know Roth saw a web site advertising one. Very sad if it is true. Imagine sinking that low in terms of desperation. I heard the families of the victims received $10,000 in compensation, so the people being killed were literally sacrificing their lives for their family. It would be cool if Roth would make a movie about someone like that and the effect it had on the next generation.

Thanks for the comments.

10:50 PM  
Anonymous said...

Hi, Kevin -- I stumbled on your review while googling (curious to find what others had made of the film), and I'm glad I did. While I'm not so sure Hostel had a Christian message, per se (I could be wrong, but I'm relatively sure Eli Roth is Jewish), I do think you're right to point to the film's moral message (non-demonitional or otherwise). I'm very happy to see both your open-mindedness in giving the film a chance at all and your perceptive take on Hostel -- I think a lot of more secular types, possibly expecting a kneejerk negative reaction from a Christian critic, would be pleasantly surprised to read your review (I'm one of them, and I was).

PS: I'd have to take exception to the idea that Tarantino is new to the exploration of moral/religious issues in his films -- Jules in Pulp Fiction experiences a quite unambiguous conversion, and presumably changes his ways.

9:01 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Anonymous: Thanks for the encouraging feedback. I'm glad you stumbled across my review.

I trust it's fairly obvious that I'm being a bit facetious in this piece when it comes to any sort of religious motive on the part of Roth and Tarantino, esp. when you hear the way Tarantino has been pitching this film. But I don't think there's any way the strongly moralistic tone of this film could be an accident. What motivates it, I'm not exactly sure. I'd love to discuss the film with both of them sometime.

As for Tarantino and religion, I'm right on board with you, esp. in terms of Pulp Fiction. I think it is one of the most profoundly religious films of the 1990s. However, most people can't get past the kid's head getting blown off in the car to see this fascinating philosophical discussion about fate and grace for what it is. For a really intriguing discussion of this aspect of the film, check out James Spence’s essay “Grace, Fate, and Accident in Pulp Fiction" in the book "Movies and the Meaning of Life." A worthwhile book all around.

Incidentally, if you'd like to read a few more of my thoughts on the horror genre, check out my review of "The Devil's Rejects," also on this site.

And feel free to come back again! I think my next review will be "Underworld: Evolution." I'm hoping that film will be what I hoped the original Underworld would be, but I'm not holding my breath...

10:53 PM  
Liz said...

AHA! Kevin gets critical! Like, REALLY critical... well done, lad!! Knew you were capable of "seeing through"...

"it dawned on me that rather stretch the boundaries of morality, cinema, and good taste; this film seemed designed to reinforce them instead"... you're actually putting your finger on it. But it's reinforcement of a negative kind.

I think that Roth's conservative message is basically even simpler than the one you propose: and is one shared by a lot of retrograde horror fiction (and comics) that I've read... The idea is very simple and "primal": two people, a guy and a gal, are making love, and the boogeyman creeps up on them as they do it... is the basic one. The next one on from that, would be a kind of "Rake's Progress" idea, where a hero's strength is sapped too much by his indulgence in the pleasures of the flesh (...hey... SAMSON & DELILAH come to mind, at all?! Heck, I wasn't thinking about that or planning to include it in my miniessay, but the associative mind intruded... hope it doens't mess up my greater point!)... and so said hero or heroes can't defeat the bad guys until they abstain from sex for a bit. Etc, etc.

"The key point is the parallel Roth draws between Paxton’s Amsterdam experience and this pit of despair. He appears to be saying that the first inevitably leads to the second." Uhuh... that's generally the message, of those types of thing! Wages of sin are death blah blah... or perhaps we Freudian-informed could say that Eros leads to Thanatos??

"Making a film that warns people about the perils of messing around with lust is one thing. But when you use the very behaviors you are warning against to make that statement, things have a way of backfiring on you. People who are sophisticated enough to get your message will get it. But let’s be honest, most people who gravitate toward films like Hostel are not sophisticated enough to get it, and so all this film really accomplishes is further desensitization, moving the audience one step further down the very road Roth is warning them against traveling."

Yup, and that's true too... the wages of watching too many junk movies (and not criticising them to yourself) is a junky mental landscape and thought processes!

How would you expect people like Tarantino and Roth NOT to revel in it, though... especially given Q.T.'s most recent record?

I have the feeling though that he MEANS to desensitize: that this is what Tarantino has by now decided that his life's work will be. Ie, nothing positive.

These people have nihilistic beliefs and obsessions: that is why they are fascinated by this sort of shlocky material, and by the "true life stories" or websites it is purportedly based on, that people are supposed to run "in real life". (You can't sell your own life anywhere in the Western world for $10,000, or for anything: that wouldn't wash: even if a person consents to be killed, his killer will still be jailed for manslaughter at least, as happened in that German cannibal case, where one man gave permission to another to eat him... that was real, all right: but nobody has ever made a movie based on it: whatsamatter guys, showing real-life consequences too much for ya?)

Now, this is what the reviewer of the WSWS makes out of it.. he is as per usual, not impressed!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/casa-j11.shtml

"Tarantino and his acolytes are cultural arsonists", says chief reviewer David Walsh. Well. As soon as I read that line, Kevin, I smiled a wry, and satisfied, smile. You know why?? Because that officially defines Tarantino "and acolytes" as criminals. An arsonist is a felon. And... do you know what happens to felons - to people officially recognised as criminal? Yes, that's right, they get punished!! Just as the morality plays of our traditional popular culture have always played before us: crime does not pay!

(And now WHAT would you expect a fan like me of OLD-fashioned comics and traditional pop culture to espouse, hmm, Kevin?? Certainly not modern nihilism!)

Tarantino's purposes may be "conservative" or in order to aid the modern conservative (fascist) view, which is a lot less "moral" than conservatives would have you believe. (Told you ages before that the right wing have a death cult!!)

But his results are vandalistic.

Right-wing vandals, we'll 'ave you.

BTW: to all who do not know me, I am a socialist.

5:04 AM  
Liz said...

Hey, I quite liked "Underworld"... Werewolves vs. vampires, alpha female, no?

Shlock but good shlock!

I always think that scripts of modern Hollywood blockbuster-type action movies could be better, myself, though...

That is why I make the linked contentions:-

1) Modern American comics - largely garbage

2) Modern Hollywood movies - could do better

3) Modern American TV... that quite often manages to be quality, to be witty and to hit the spot! (As well as the mark.)

Ergo: Modern American TV serials win hands down over the rest of your culture.

7:12 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Response to Liz's first post: Thanks for the feedback. Insightful as always. I love the phrase "cultural arsonists." I do agree that there seems to be a certain nihilistic tone to their Tarantino and Roth's work, as in, "we're all animals, we're only here for a good time, not a long time, so let's go crazy." But what surprised me about this film (and about Pulp Fiction) was how the end seemed to turn on this attitude and expose it for what it is, a morally vacant, hopeless form of existence. Both "Hostel" and "Pulp Fiction" seem to want ot point audiences to something more, to scare them straight, to to speak.

As for this line: "that German cannibal case, where one man gave permission to another to eat him... that was real, all right: but nobody has ever made a movie based on it: whatsamatter guys, showing real-life consequences too much for ya?)" someone did just make a movie loosely based on this situation, and the cannibal wants to sue.

8:42 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

I loved the idea of "Underworld," that is, the premise behind it, but this premise isn't really revealed until near the end of the second act. I think they should have started out explaining that for centuries, werewolves have been slaves to vampires, acting as their protectors, suppliers, and occasional victims. Totally rewrite the legend for both creatures. Then show the werewolves begin to rebel, and the vampires striving to maintain control. It's a gothic Spartacus. Now you've got somethign interesting. As it was, it just seemed like a lot of macho posturing and infighting in both camps. No really compelling metanarrative to tie it all together.

Once again, however, they've managed to create an excellent trailer that sorely tempts me to check out the film (even though the fanboys on imdb are already knocking it).

8:48 AM  
Liz said...

Glad you liked it on the whole, Kevin... So someone DID make a movie based on the German cannibal, can't remember his name right now?? And the cannibal didn't appreciate it. (He's got bigger things to worry about now, though, because apparently, the Germans want to re-prosecute him for murder!) So - director, title?? (This is interesting info.)

And you think that Tarantino has a glimmer of wanting to "scare people straight"... could be, but I don't think "Kill Bill 2" was trying to scare anybody straight! "Pulp Fiction" was a far superior movie, because of the way the different storylines and characters were woven together... hey, as Ben Elton once seemed to IMPLY, in his novel "Popcorn" (read it?)... he never SAID he was talking about Q.T. because as per usual, he created a satirical fictional character... but Tarantino seems to have all the technique and all the talent, but chooses little of the content that it is worthy of... rather like a delinquent schoolboy trying to shock his teachers!

And yes, "Underworld". I just liked the idea of something slightly different in horror movies, not as cliched as even "Blade" was... I just dug the idea of vampires vs. werewolves, werewolves vs. vampires... and I liked the female lead... though I agree, they didn't much explore the idea of the werewolves as downtrodden!

I just thought I'd like to see more of it! They may have decided to go more for special effects than a plot, though... because I see all these trailers with winged things that look a bit like that monster in "Cave"... seen that?

(Wouldn't "vampires vs. werewolves" rewrit comedically... make a brilliant idea for a North American Saturday morning TV cartoon?? Though? (I can see it now!)

Ah Kevin, you and I must still work together some day!)

6:06 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: Here is a url that tells about the German cannibal film: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10787534/

In terms of Tarantino, he won my respect with Pulp Fiction, but I can't say I've been overly impressed with anything else he's done since then, with perhaps the exception of Jackie Brown. I really enjoyed the overall feel of that film. I know a lot of people LOVED Kill Bill. I wanted to love it, too, but I just couldn't get into it. Perhaps I need to watch it again.

8:58 AM  
Todd H said...

Loved your review - great insights, great questions. I will likely never see the film, but I appreciate those who wander down the road to engage culture in some of its darker aspects.

1:56 PM  
Matt Chandler said...

Well written sir. Can't help but suspect the reading your précis offered me much more than sitting through 90 minutes of dimly lit gore ever could. Hey, and I saved 10 bucks too! That's win-win.

11:03 PM  
matt chandler said...

That is to say, 'the reading of your précis'.
*shuffles feet awkwardly*
Fie, a pox on self-editing. A pox I say!

11:11 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Enlightening and amusing, as always, Matt. Now THAT is a win-win combination.

8:26 AM  
liz said...

Kev: you're right about "Kill Bill"... boy are you right... and you are spot-on with your appraisals of Tarantino's other movies - "Pulp Fiction" and "Jackie Brown" are indeed the critics' choices... well they are in the sort of critical circles I frequent!

No: Tarantino is obviously talented: he could maybe have moved on to be a modern "Orson Welles" of filmmaking - but I think that he is just afraid to "grow up", and rather than maturing, his style/subjectmatter has become ever more juvenile.

KB1 was not nearly as bad as KB2. I only watched KB1 because for some reason I found the female lead - Uma Thurman in that particular costume and character - riveting. Go figure.

Hey Kevin. (And Todd, and Matt!) Have you been over to Maurice's page to read all his "comments sections", recently?? Have you read his review of "Dark Knight Returns" and the subsequent round of comments? THAT, as you may guess, I just could not stay away from... though we have fallen out a bit recently, as you may know! (He thinks I hate him when I don't; even when he is rejecting towards me. It's just some of his... shall we say political illusions... that I would dearly, actually, like to disabuse him of!)

Hence I first (re)appeared under the flag of my political beliefs, namely "socialist" on that particular blog!

Anyway, Mark Stokes came along, and for a while we had a little discussion going there... but it soon petered out, because Mark obviously didn't want to discuss most of what I would like to discuss (and believe me, DKR is just the biggest can of worms!!) So he bowed out after 3 entries... well done Mark, bfn!

And apart from a small appearance from one of Maurice's sidekicks... (it's SO funny, you know, I have decided: like a Batman or a Joker or some other fiend of comicdom, Maurice actually appears to attract his own sidekicks! Remind me to get a few!)

... But apart from that there has been nothing much doing on there, apart from my mini-essays.

So, Kevin... fancy coming around on there?? Todd, Matt, as well??

So that some of you BLOKES can maybe tell me your opinions as to what is so flaming GOOD about "The Dark Knight Returns!" (Those of you who do think that.)

(Maurice actually doesn't, very much: he goes on more quickly to the "parallels with Scripture" bit, which I disagree with very strongly in *this* context, for the reasons which I gave. (Ie, there's nothing Christian about that... a superhero is meant to have =ideals=, and in my view, Frank Miller's has none. That any Christian - or humanist - would like to subscribe to. Few ideologies would: but there are a few, who would.)

Finally I moved on to a feminist attack!)

Guys. You cannot miss this...

9:21 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: Haven't had time to hang out on Maurice's blog lately except to note that he had posted his DK review and that you and a few others have responded. I'll have to check it out.

However, I can say that I met both Maurice and Mark Stokes at a recent HollywoodJesus gathering and found them both to be tremendously great guys. Lots of fun. I even sat and watched Mark eat tendon and tripe soup. This guy is no wimp. So things may get heated on the boards, but I know Maurice still loves you.

Speaking of Batman, have you ever read "Batman: Dark Victory" by Jeph Loeb? Highly, highly recommended. I'd be curious to hear your opinion of it. I haven't yet assembled a Marxist critique of it. I just really like the overall tone and pacing of the story.

I've also been delving into Warren Ellis and Neil Gaiman over the last couple of months. Ever read those Brits? I have to say I prefer Ellis's work to Gaiman's, but don't tell Maurice I said that.

10:18 PM  
Liz said...

Yes, I heard about the HJ gathering: wasn't sure when it was to take place, but sure enough, I found an account of it on the HJ site fairly early in the New Year! I knew you guys were due to meet up. I saw all your pictures! Looks like you had fun.

Tendon and tripe soup, hmm... (Don't worry I am not a vegetarian!)

"Batman: Dark Victory" by Jeph Loeb. Isn't that one of the more recently-published ones... by the same guy that brought us "Long Halloween" or whatever it was?

I'm sure I actually saw both reviewed in a book club magazine... but didn't in the event get either: probably strapped for cash.

In the late 90s, DC, didn't they, started comissioning more actual "detective" type stories in the Batman line, didn't they: that were "dark" in tone, but had a recognisable detective basis and plot. Genuine attempts at "comic book noir"? Who knows. One must have a good poke about. But I still have this feeling about modern-day Batman versions: they all (and even the CARTOON was influenced like this to some extent: well, at least the later development of it, "Batman of the Future" or whatever it was called, that I didn't approve of)... they all seem to make this assumption of pessimism: that everything will turn out badly for the "Batman" characters, and that both heroes and villains will either die miserably, (eg. Paul Dini suggests the Joker dies by misadventure/electric shock!) or go on to a miserable, lonely old age, like the miserable 70-year-old Bruce portrayed in that cartoon... sorry guys, I just don't buy it! (I am going to write to Paul Dini one of these days and tell him which parts of his work I liked and which I didn't! If he thinks that's "Goth"... some of those assumptions are insulting to Goths, too, because most of them are perfectly happy people!)

They can all be miserable if they try. But speaking from my own point of view, if I were them, I would try not being miserable! See what I mean?

Bah. The males in those stories should all MARRY: that's their flippin' real problem! But strangely enough, comic book writers seem to have this real difficulty, with moving their characters on, past adolescence, or at least past the bacherlorhood and fancy-freeness of single days. (This happens in other popular forms: James Bond, for instance, never marries; well he does in one movie, but his wife immediately gets killed!)

But OTHER superheroes, I am just pointing out, cf. Superman and Spiderman, they've married.... so I don't really know why Bats should be such a puritan and such a recluse, as they have portrayed him these days.

(I can talk for myself: I'm a stroppy bachelor girl... and thus just might remain!)

Those might be my only objections to a "comic book noir" story by Jeph Loeb, say, rather than Marxist ones. Though I *will* come up with the Marxist/feminist ones, if I see continual needling, therein, of women, gays, liberals, leftists or other progressive people... or if there are downright misogynist storylines such as Alan Moore would from time to time like to sell you.

If I don't see such annoying things, appearing in a story, then I won't criticise them. Obviously. And I am surprised, that not more left-liberals find Frank Miller, for instance, offensive.

(I really need to re-form a good relationship with my local lending library!)

Yeah, I've read a bit of Neil Gaiman, am increasingly getting into him... though found "American Gods" disappointing, as I told Maurice. I have read Ellis, but it was years ago, I think, and I didn't buy the books, they were from the library.

I'd say that I am probably going to prefer Gaiman to Ellis... don't worry I won't tell Maurice about your preference. But neither of them seems ideal from my point of view. If we were talking about music, now, I'd say that Gaiman fell into the "sensitive, emo, soft-rock" camp... and that Warren Ellis is a shock rocker - and me, I don't really like either!

If Maurice still really loved me, he'd let me send him e-mails... You can tell him I said that!

12:51 PM  
Liz said...

Kevin, help. (Please?!) Maurice is accusing me of making manifestos. He says he wants... conversations. For that we need conversees.

(I wonder if by conversations, he means "soft debates" where he doesn't have to work!)

I mean, look at all the ISSUES I bring up... does no-one want to debate me on the issues?

For example, this is a point I put both to Maurice and Mark in an earlier post (thinking we'd got the discussion off the ground and that I'd receive a response!)

"Answer me: who thinks that the old idea of superheroes who refused to kill anybody, and never maimed anybody, was fundamentally better?? That it appealed to higher ground in the human spirit."

Well, who does?? You, Kevin? Or do you think that that notion of the hero is too "idealistic", conversely?

Mark I think was already tired of the discussion, because he'd said what he wanted to say: and Maurice chose to respond to a side point and not to the main point, at all!

As I said, I am surprised that not more liberal readers reject Miller's Batman and despise him for being inhumane. As I do myself.

I'm sure some do: but because comics are not so large a medium, and also because the mainstream media are so tightly-controlled these days (many people, even on boards and blogs, you see, wait for an "opinion-former" to tell them what to think of something before they can make their bleat!)... Well because things are tightly-controlled, and because the liberal old guard are in decline, nobody seems to mention these things much. Nobody really cares about culture (I think). Otherwise they (the intelligentsia) wouldn't have prizes like the Turner Prize being given to such mediocre efforts.

Whenever there is any public outcry/criticism of a piece of media/entertainment, the media itself seems to want to control the narrative, and just make out something simplistic, like: "oh it's those prudish born-again christians sounding off again".

There are other reasons not to like a movie or a comic, other than that you're a born-again christian. (Though they do tend to have their own agenda.)

3:48 PM  
Reviews by Mark Stokes said...

...Did somebody say TRIPE???

Sorry I haven't provided much bantar lately, Liz. In addition to my teaching load this semester, I decided to sit in on a colleague's Shakespeare class. Who knew ol' Willie had written so much (and inspired so much criticism to be written)!

Anyway, I'm not really sure about my preference for heroes right now, because I think I've seen good and bad examples of both types. I'm in a phase now where I'm just really excited about story-telling in general. Perhaps after I consume enough representative texts from both camps, I can make a valid statement about preferences. You've got good thoughts, but I think the A.D.D. in me can't keep up with all the different lines of thinking you've got going in your posts. Perhaps one day I'll get medicated.

Oh yeah, and about Hostel...

I haven't seen it, but I think I've cited your analysis, Kevin, to at least 4 or 5 students this week. I think they think I'm in a cult.

6:08 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Mark in a cult? Now that's a load of tripe.

9:23 PM  
Liz said...

Tripe? ADD???

No, Mark, at least you tried... I am still waiting on Kevin!

Shakespeare; yes, he's a remarkable writer, and much written-about. Which is why I prefer writing about pop culture - less gone over ground! (Now, guys, I think I should have done at least an English Lit. 'A' Level, you see, if not studied it at university, because I was always reading the introductions to the school texts with all the "litcrit" and "considers" in them; but, I didn't get the chance, you see, and this is to do with the deficits of the English education system. You can only choose 3 subjects at "A" (senior high school) level, and I already had my 3 places filled. And if you don't do the "A" level (unless it is an uncommon subject) you can't take it at university... (And we don't have "minors" at uni, worse luck, something I have long mourned.)

So it looks like I am forever doomed to be frustrated.

So, Mark... are you a new fiction writer?? Having some success on a writing course, maybe?

Actually I think that media studies would have been the best thing for me. Combined Eng Lit and media studies. (But you never know that at 17, which is when you actually select your university course, what would actually be best for you! And the careers advice I received was abysmal/nonexistent. I was disappointed with the English further education system when I was in it - and you didn't have to pay for it, then! You do now. THAT was a whammy on the English middle class, far worse than any tax increase! Blair never put that in his manifesto. What a con.)

Yeah; but I prefer to analyse things, so if I had my time all over again, it would be Media Studies for me.

I'd better not think too much: it only leaves me feeling depressed...

2:26 PM  
liz said...

(Kevin?)

5:05 PM  
Liz said...

Hey, Kevin! If you don't want to "impose" on Maurice's site... why not pay a visit to me on my now-resurrected blog - http://lizfrombritain.livejournal.com/1763.html -

it gets far less visitors, and I'm sure you won't be treading on anybody's toes, least of all Maurice's.... HE never goes to my livejournal site, now do you, Maurice??

You must be quite busy at the moment though, because you're putting up a lot less reviews than before!

But anyway, I really thought I was on to something with the idea of the "idealistic hero" versus the modern version!

I did write on one of my own "comments" on my site, that no-one, now *no-one* would expect, or welcome, or accept, a "Rambo Frodo", now would they??

So why should we have a Rambo Batman??

When actually - another interesting fact - the writers of those idealistic, magical, seminal fantasies that have spawned such a franchise today, J R R Tolkien and C S Lewis - they were writing and publishing THEIR work, at a time that co-incided with the Golden Age of comics! (Just slightly later, actually, than the bulk of that, in America - late 40s to mid-50s, for Tolkien and Lewis!)

Actually, I'm sure that neither Tolkien nor Lewis ever read a comic in his life. But had they... I rather feel that they would have approved, rather than otherwise, of the Golden Age style of comic book hero. Golden Age Batman and Superman.

Whereas Frank Miller... no, I don't think they'd like that! Do you?

5:38 AM  
Liz said...

Dear Kevin: Please come and visit me at my livejournal! I started off (Frank!) Miller-bashing, but I've springboarded off Maurice's "Dark Knight Returns" into quite something else! (But equally comics-related - but not really about F.M.!) I'm becoming quite original - and getting excited by it!! Come and have a look: either click on the above link please or paste this into your browser: http://lizfrombritain.livejournal.com/4222.html?view=8318#t8318

7:01 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: I'll get there asap. Sorry, been waylaid by work, as you surmised. Actually heading to Sierra Leone in less than two weeks to research another film project. So very busy trying to get that trip in order.

9:01 AM  
Liz said...

Gosh - sounds exciting! Good luck and pleasant trip!

12:50 AM  
Anonymous said...

"But who would have expected such a staunchly conservative message from Tarantino and Roth, best known for promoting sin rather than issuing warnings against it? What’s going on here? Have these guys suddenly gone religious?"

Have you seen Pulp Fiction? May I recommend that you take some time to think about why Samuel L. Jackson's character lived while John Travolta's character died.

"Which leads to the uncomfortable question of whether my own motives for viewing this film were truly "pure." Was I really just there as a critic- a minister of God, even- or do I somehow get off on this sort of thing as well?"

Kudos for the self-examinatin. It's so refreshing to find a spiritual site that doesn't focus on pointing the finger at others.

9:58 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Thanks for the note. For the record, I'm well aware of the strong spiritual message of grace in "Pulp Fiction" (one of my favorite films of all time). I was just voicing the common conception of Tarantino as a morally irresponsible, "thumb in the eye" bad boy. I think there's a lot going on beneath the surface of his work.

10:01 AM  
Jakub N. said...

Just saw the movie. I agree with you that it shows a very nasty side of us. It astounds me that people seem to mis the anti hunting/animal butchering and pro vegetarian message in the movie. To me that's what it was about. "Extreme Hunters", the main character is a vegetarian, the butcher in the crematorium scene. Sure there were other aspect like vanity, all tied together with our human ability to do the nastiest things.

9:14 PM  
Anonymous said...

Yeah, after reading your essay, I'm now wondering: Why did I rent this? Is this what I enjoy?

I think I was hoping to see another genre-defining movie, one that could hold company with "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre," "The Shining" and "The Exorcist." Those movies work because the scares aren't there to only scare, but to educate the audience and deliver the true message of the movie.

This movie, as you said, falls short. The social commentary is muddled and the gore steals the show.

So...I'm going to relieve my conscience of guilt and assure myself that I wanted to see a true work of art. But I fear, as you said, too many are renting this for the realistic torture. Ugh.

9:58 PM  
Erik E. said...

Kevin, I agree with your assessment regarding the irony of the medium being the message. Though "Hostel" may be a warning about potentially dangerous behaviour, you are right that this message could indeed be missed by those merely looking for thrill ride. In contrast, I would strongly recommend a movie like "Get Carter" (the Stallone version, I have not seen the earlier version), which is successful in being an anti-pornography film that never actually crosses the line into showing explicit scenes of pornography (though there is explicit violence). This is a serious challenge for filmmakers, but one that I think is important.

11:43 AM  

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