Batman Begins
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
Batman Begins is the first truly great superhero film. While most superhero films tend to emphasize spectacle over story, Batman Begins is more like a character study masquerading as an action movie. Like Bruce Wayne, this film only resorts to superheroics when all other avenues are exhausted. And when writer/director Christopher Nolan does employ such tactics, he mirrors Batman by treating them as necessary evils rather than big set pieces. During most fight or chase scenes, for example, the camera is so close to the action that all we really observe is the suggestion of action rather than the action itself. This is yet another reflection of Batman’s philosophy: Results are what matter, not how pretty you look as you achieve them. That’s not to say this film—or Batman—does no appreciate the value of theatrics. Exactly the opposite. But both Batman and Nolan realize that if you’re going to create a spectacle—a myth, even—you had better be able to back it up with rock-solid substance. So before the climactic, “all hope is lost if the hero doesn’t succeed� chase sequence, Nolan spends most of the movie creating just that: substance.
Beginning with Bruce Wayne’s training in the Himalayas at the hands of the mysterious Ducard, Nolan feeds us a steady stream of questions regarding justice, fear, identity, anger, guilt, and vengeance. While Wayne doesn’t necessarily embrace everything Ducard has to say on these topics, Ducard’s tutelage is crucial in shaping the type of man Wayne will become. Ducard helps him refine his vision, overcome his fears, and find a constructive channel for his rage.
When Wayne returns to Gotham—a city so rife with corruption that Ducard and his nefarious “League of Shadows� sees no other solution than to destroy it—he determines to prove that even Gotham can be redeemed. He is not exactly sure how he will do it. But, little by little, he assembles the equipment, the personnel, the tactics, and, most importantly, the persona that will enable him to pull it off.
Wayne’s first forays as Batman are not exactly graceful. But the more experienced he becomes, the more success he experiences. Soon, his mere presence in the city begins to have the desired effect. Criminals are stricken with terror at the mere mention of his name, and crime begins to wane. It isn’t long before the myth begins to overshadow the reality, and Batman becomes exactly what Ducard promised: More than a man, he has become a legend.
But has Batman—Bruce Wayne—become a hero? That is the question that lurks at the heart of this film. Of all the heroes in the DC Comics universe, Batman skates closest to the fine line that separates superheroes from supervillains, because his quest for justice is so strongly tainted with vengeance, his methodology so riddled with fear and violence. Unlike Superman, for example, Batman isn’t on a self-sacrificial quest to save society from evil. For Batman—for Bruce Wayne—his fight against injustice is personal, a direct response to the murder of his parents. Among other things, this aspect of his ideology frees him to use tactics that his other (arguably) more heroic comrades will not. It also makes him one of the most intriguing heroes around. Like us, he is a complex mixture of good and evil. Even though Batman has learned to channel and control his dark side, at times we wonder if it is really the other way around—that his dark side has learned to channel and control him. This is what keeps us coming back for more, because we often wonder the same thing about ourselves.
In this film at least, Wayne does see a clear line of demarcation between him and his enemies. Namely, Wayne regards himself as compassionate, whereas his enemies are not. Early in the film when Wayne refuses to kill someone at Ducard’s command, Ducard chides him for his hesitancy, saying, “That is a weakness your enemy will not share.�
“Exactly,� Wayne replies. “That’s why it’s so important.� People like Ducard will kill to achieve their goals, even wipe out an entire city of innocent civilians, if necessary. But while Wayne may not always prevent the death of his enemies—even when it is within his power to do so—he will not cause their death by his own hand. And certainly he will not wittingly injure or kill civilians in his quest for justice. This difference, Wayne figures, places him at least one step higher on the moral ladder than his villainous counterparts. Perhaps. But I believe Wayne’s unwillingness to extend compassion to everyone—including his enemies—is his greatest weakness, a flaw in his ideology that will eventually bring Gotham City crashing down around his pointy ears.
To understand why I think this, we need to jump ahead to one of the final scenes in the film when Lieutenant Gordon raises the question of escalation. He notes that the stronger Gotham’s forces of justice become, the more determined their enemies will become in response. “If we use Kevlar, they’ll use armor-piercing rounds.� Batman isn’t too fazed by this, confident that no matter what the villains come up with, he can create something even more powerful to defeat them. This may be true, but it also points to an inevitable clash between ideology and methodology—between goals and means—a problem that plagues not just Batman but all superheroes.
Screenwriting guru Robert McKee hints at this problem in his book Story, where he states that the hero of a story creates the rest of the cast. What he means is, once a writer creates a hero with specific abilities and character qualities, he or she then creates the rest of the characters based on their ability to showcase certain aspects of the hero. If a hero is generous, the writer will ensure the hero encounters characters that elicit this aspect of his or her character. If the hero is clever, the writer will put him or her in conflict with an equally clever antagonist.
As I thought about McKee’s statement, it occurred to me that this principle is particularly true in the world of superheroes. When you create a godlike hero, you must create godlike villains for him or her to overcome. After all, what’s the point of creating a nearly indestructible character like Superman if the only people he ever goes up against are petty thieves? Sooner or later, a character that is capable of saving the world must be pitted against a villain capable of destroying the world. Otherwise, readers/viewers will lose interest.
Let’s set the question of entertainment value aside for a moment though and pretend that the world of Gotham were real. If so, the evolution of supervillains would be a natural response to the presence of superheroes. For instance, in Batman Begins, it isn’t long before the criminals of Gotham realize they need to make some drastic changes to their tactics if they hope to remain in business. It’s a simple market reality: The more powerful Batman becomes, the more powerful they must become. If Batman is stealthy, they must become even stealthier. If he develops technology to help him in his crime-fighting efforts, they must develop even better technology. If he responds to their actions with violence, they must respond with even more violence. If Batman becomes, in effect, super-powered; they must also become super-powerful. Thus, the escalation Gordon predicted will come true.
In this sense, Batman becomes his own worst enemy, because his very presence in Gotham assures that more and stronger villains will continue to arise. Rather than serve to stabilize society then, Batman actually becomes a destabilizing force instead. This is the clash between ideology and methodology I mentioned earlier: Batman thinks he can adopt the criminals’ methodology (except for murder) and yet still remain true to his ideology. But, as Gordon foresees, the best such a schema can do is forestall the inevitable—mutually assured destruction of hero, villain, and society as a whole. Thus, we can finally see how the limit Wayne has placed on compassion truly does become his greatest weakness: By refusing to extend compassion to include his enemies, he doesn’t weaken them; he actually makes them stronger, thus compounding the very social problems he set out to solve.
Just think about the real world implications of this fact: Today, our primary response to something like terrorism is to hunt down and kill the terrorists. And why not? Surely a motley band of insurgents is no match for the technological and military might of the West. And yet, despite a global effort to defeat terrorism, the terrorists still manage to strike ever more frequent and devastating blows. Unthinkable. Or is it? Could it be that, like Batman in Gotham, the mere presence of such an overwhelming military superpower in our world is giving rise to the very thing that superpower was created to stand against? Like Batman, could the willingness of the West to adopt the methodologies of its enemies—war, terror, torture, etc.—actually be forcing our enemies to become more creative, more desperate, more willing to attempt bolder and more terrifying schemes because they see no other way of achieving their goals? If so, is there any way out of this situation? Let’s see if Batman Begins can provide us with an answer.
Imagine for a moment that instead of becoming the Caped Crusader, Bruce Wayne followed in the footsteps of his father and focused on preventing crime through social initiatives rather than trying to beat criminals into submission. I can’t be certain, but I doubt supervillains like Ra’s Ah Ghul or the Scarecrow would ever arise in Gotham, because without a superhero like Batman, there would be no need for them. Admittedly, Wayne’s effect on crime would not be as immediate or dramatic as Batman’s—and it sure wouldn’t make for a very interesting comic book. But in the long run, I believe it would be far more effective. Rather than intensify the resolve and ability of his adversaries, Wayne’s efforts would chip away at their ability to operate by alleviating the social factors that make crime an appealing career alternative.
If you want to get really radical, imagine if, in his efforts to solve the city’s social problems, Wayne actually extended his compassion to include the criminals themselves. What if, rather than coming up with tougher laws and longer sentences, for instance, he focused on rehabilitating them instead? Who knows? He may just discover that even criminals can be redeemed. As it stands though, Wayne is a lot like us. He tends to objectify his enemies, to view them as evil constructs rather than real people. They are evil by nature, he believes, sub-human even. Objectifying criminals like this serves two functions: First, it releases Wayne from feeling anything toward them, making it easier for him to dispatch them. Second, it frees him from asking hard questions like, “What circumstances caused this person to pursue a life of crime? Has my life contributed to those circumstances in any way? If so, how? What can I do to change those circumstances?� Pursue such questions far enough, and I believe they will reveal that none of us are truly innocent, that we all bear at least a tacit responsibility for society’s ills. I suspect such questions will also reveal that perhaps our desire to vanquish our enemies is really an attempt to vanquish the voices of guilt that plague our soul. That’s why Wayne—and the rest of us—are so afraid to ask them.
Bruce Wayne is correct: Compassion does make him different from his enemies, but only marginally so. His ideology may be different from theirs. But as long as his methodology remains the same, Batman will continue to be as much a villain as he is a hero. The question is; would we really want him any other way? Not if this contradiction continues to inspire movies as fascinating as this one. As for us, that’s a different matter altogether…
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
Batman Begins is the first truly great superhero film. While most superhero films tend to emphasize spectacle over story, Batman Begins is more like a character study masquerading as an action movie. Like Bruce Wayne, this film only resorts to superheroics when all other avenues are exhausted. And when writer/director Christopher Nolan does employ such tactics, he mirrors Batman by treating them as necessary evils rather than big set pieces. During most fight or chase scenes, for example, the camera is so close to the action that all we really observe is the suggestion of action rather than the action itself. This is yet another reflection of Batman’s philosophy: Results are what matter, not how pretty you look as you achieve them. That’s not to say this film—or Batman—does no appreciate the value of theatrics. Exactly the opposite. But both Batman and Nolan realize that if you’re going to create a spectacle—a myth, even—you had better be able to back it up with rock-solid substance. So before the climactic, “all hope is lost if the hero doesn’t succeed� chase sequence, Nolan spends most of the movie creating just that: substance.When Wayne returns to Gotham—a city so rife with corruption that Ducard and his nefarious “League of Shadows� sees no other solution than to destroy it—he determines to prove that even Gotham can be redeemed. He is not exactly sure how he will do it. But, little by little, he assembles the equipment, the personnel, the tactics, and, most importantly, the persona that will enable him to pull it off.
Wayne’s first forays as Batman are not exactly graceful. But the more experienced he becomes, the more success he experiences. Soon, his mere presence in the city begins to have the desired effect. Criminals are stricken with terror at the mere mention of his name, and crime begins to wane. It isn’t long before the myth begins to overshadow the reality, and Batman becomes exactly what Ducard promised: More than a man, he has become a legend.
In this film at least, Wayne does see a clear line of demarcation between him and his enemies. Namely, Wayne regards himself as compassionate, whereas his enemies are not. Early in the film when Wayne refuses to kill someone at Ducard’s command, Ducard chides him for his hesitancy, saying, “That is a weakness your enemy will not share.�
To understand why I think this, we need to jump ahead to one of the final scenes in the film when Lieutenant Gordon raises the question of escalation. He notes that the stronger Gotham’s forces of justice become, the more determined their enemies will become in response. “If we use Kevlar, they’ll use armor-piercing rounds.� Batman isn’t too fazed by this, confident that no matter what the villains come up with, he can create something even more powerful to defeat them. This may be true, but it also points to an inevitable clash between ideology and methodology—between goals and means—a problem that plagues not just Batman but all superheroes.
Screenwriting guru Robert McKee hints at this problem in his book Story, where he states that the hero of a story creates the rest of the cast. What he means is, once a writer creates a hero with specific abilities and character qualities, he or she then creates the rest of the characters based on their ability to showcase certain aspects of the hero. If a hero is generous, the writer will ensure the hero encounters characters that elicit this aspect of his or her character. If the hero is clever, the writer will put him or her in conflict with an equally clever antagonist.
As I thought about McKee’s statement, it occurred to me that this principle is particularly true in the world of superheroes. When you create a godlike hero, you must create godlike villains for him or her to overcome. After all, what’s the point of creating a nearly indestructible character like Superman if the only people he ever goes up against are petty thieves? Sooner or later, a character that is capable of saving the world must be pitted against a villain capable of destroying the world. Otherwise, readers/viewers will lose interest.
In this sense, Batman becomes his own worst enemy, because his very presence in Gotham assures that more and stronger villains will continue to arise. Rather than serve to stabilize society then, Batman actually becomes a destabilizing force instead. This is the clash between ideology and methodology I mentioned earlier: Batman thinks he can adopt the criminals’ methodology (except for murder) and yet still remain true to his ideology. But, as Gordon foresees, the best such a schema can do is forestall the inevitable—mutually assured destruction of hero, villain, and society as a whole. Thus, we can finally see how the limit Wayne has placed on compassion truly does become his greatest weakness: By refusing to extend compassion to include his enemies, he doesn’t weaken them; he actually makes them stronger, thus compounding the very social problems he set out to solve.
Just think about the real world implications of this fact: Today, our primary response to something like terrorism is to hunt down and kill the terrorists. And why not? Surely a motley band of insurgents is no match for the technological and military might of the West. And yet, despite a global effort to defeat terrorism, the terrorists still manage to strike ever more frequent and devastating blows. Unthinkable. Or is it? Could it be that, like Batman in Gotham, the mere presence of such an overwhelming military superpower in our world is giving rise to the very thing that superpower was created to stand against? Like Batman, could the willingness of the West to adopt the methodologies of its enemies—war, terror, torture, etc.—actually be forcing our enemies to become more creative, more desperate, more willing to attempt bolder and more terrifying schemes because they see no other way of achieving their goals? If so, is there any way out of this situation? Let’s see if Batman Begins can provide us with an answer.
Bruce Wayne is correct: Compassion does make him different from his enemies, but only marginally so. His ideology may be different from theirs. But as long as his methodology remains the same, Batman will continue to be as much a villain as he is a hero. The question is; would we really want him any other way? Not if this contradiction continues to inspire movies as fascinating as this one. As for us, that’s a different matter altogether…
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
73 Comments:
Well, I think you've got a good point, but you might be missing something. (Or I could simply be reading more into the character than is there.)
The scene where Bruce talks about "venturing into the mind of the criminal" exposes a compassion for them. Ra's al Guhl asks him if he still felt absolute resentment for criminals after that. Bruce said, "The first time I stole so I wouldn't starve, I lost many assumptions about the simplicity of right and wrong." As he said that, we see a scene of him giving a stolen fruit (that HE stole to eat) to another young man that's even hungrier.
The biggest "anger" that we see from Bruce isn't directed at the crooks, but at the corrupt police, those who KNOW better. He's downright ticked at the likes of Detective Flass (Gordon's corrupt partner), causing him to shriek, "DO I LOOK LIKE A COP??!" This isn't to say that the current system isn't working, but that he's disgusted with how they're neglecting it.
Now, true, Batman's presence does aggravate the criminal/insane realm and causes a reaction, but how many of these insane villains has Batman shown true compassion to? How many of them has he literally mourned over? He talks first, then acts. Now, sometimes he slips and acts out of anger (as we all do), but this film really brought out the better side of Batman.
And really, if you think about it (according to the film), Scarecrow was already doing his thing before Bats came along. Ra's al Guhl was already terrorizing the world (possibly caused Bruce's parents' deaths). And if Bruce HADN'T acted, and QUICKLY, Gotham would have been destroyed.
The accurate graphic novels depict Batman working WITH the uncorrupted police force, not ahead of them. That's why he takes time to talk to Rachel, to Gordon, and to anyone else that isn't in this thing for their own game.
I'm not saying Batman's costume is necessary, but the point isn't the costume, it's the symbol. The goal isn't to beat people down when they're bad, but to let them know that somebody they can't see is watching them. To encourage them to never enter that doorway in the first place, and instead live life to the fullest.
Now, for those already insane (due to Scarecrow and Ra's), well, it's going to take a lot more than that. But for the petty thugs and gangs, it gives them a second take on what they're doing, and, while maybe initially for the wrong reasons, they might re-think their life plan.
Again, this doesn't justify vigilantism, but I don't really think Batman is a vigilante at all. Sometimes he slips into that role, but that's when Alfred and co. slap him into shape. Once (in the comics) Alfred actually locked Bruce away in the Batcave for 30 days until Bruce became sober and broken from performance enhancing drugs. He's held Bruce in check many times. Accountability (in all aspects of life) is key.
Brandon Freeman and Kevin Miller, you're BOTH right!! As the wise Sufi judge did say to the two opposing plaintiffs!!
But you CAN'T be both right! (Alternatively as King Solomon in Jewish legend says.)
Or CAN you??
Now, I still haven't yet seen the movie, so I'll withold extensive comments. Though a young socialist blogger friend of mine didn't like it at all... he called it "Batman Begins... to suck"!
But Kevin's review just raised so many wonderful, thoughtprovoking points, that I MUST comment on that alone. (Even though, like Brandon, I don't believe him to be bang on the money on everything. Like Brandon, I happen to believe that Batman in his world these days tends to get BLAMED a lot - by the authors especially - for all SORTS of things that are just out of his control. Maybe the writers think he's a god. He's not; just a particular representation of an archetype, a human, mortal representation at that - and someone who uses the PSYCHOLOGICAL tactics of the shaman - as someone wisely commented on Maurice's blog after his review!
Talented, yes. God - no.)
Hope Kevin doesn't mind if I "go on" - but then I AM repeating his words, mostly! (I liked some of them so much and thought they said things which needed to be said, and which many more apolitical Christians wouldn't say. But he would, because he has the guts to. Good.)
"If you want to get really radical, imagine if, in his efforts to solve the city’s social problems, Wayne actually extended his compassion to include the criminals themselves. What if, rather than coming up with tougher laws and longer sentences, for instance, he focused on rehabilitating them instead? Who knows? He may just discover that even criminals can be redeemed. As it stands though, Wayne is a lot like us. He tends to objectify his enemies, to view them as evil constructs rather than real people. They are evil by nature, he believes, sub-human even. Objectifying criminals like this serves two functions: First, it releases Wayne from feeling anything toward them, making it easier for him to dispatch them. Second, it frees him from asking hard questions like, “What circumstances caused this person to pursue a life of crime? Has my life contributed to those circumstances in any way? If so, how? What can I do to change those circumstances?� Pursue such questions far enough, and I believe they will reveal that none of us are truly innocent, that we all bear at least a tacit responsibility for society’s ills. I suspect such questions will also reveal that perhaps our desire to vanquish our enemies is really an attempt to vanquish the voices of guilt that plague our soul. That’s why Wayne—and the rest of us—are so afraid to ask them."
All true. Well, mostly true to my mind. The COMICS writers, in particular, should portray him TRYING more. (He used to, a bit!) He should also have HELP, he can't do it all on his OWN, because he's not God or even a god, as said. Or an ET, or whatever. Help from who? NOT just the same old characters, not just his servant, Alfred. From NEW characters. Put in some female characters. (And not just ones in skin-tight suits, thanks.) They'll help him and add their female power to his masculine.
That'll do it!
But ANYWAY - WHO was it who FURTHER "machoized" these comics, KEVIN, who was it who made them more violent and less compassionate?? WHOSE Batman treats criminals as "sub-human"?
Why, it is that of your PAL, Frank Miller, Kevin!!
How you can believe the above and still like DKR I really don't know.
Yeah, criminals want to be reformed. Or at least they want someone to have a TRY! They want to be wooed. Even the most hardened ones love attention. I can vouch for that!
But, as Brandon says... and as I myself have vouched... it is the SOCIETY itself that creates the criminals; and when it is not economic necessity, it is that of the micro-society around them. Some people, like Professor Crane, are always destined, because of various factors, to never fit in (even when they DON'T look weird), to be square pegs in round holes, NEVER to be happy... NOT to have the sort of people around them who understand what they're about...
This has been my very own experience.
I hope they present Crane properly, so that I get off on identifying with him!! The way I like to.
Anyway, just as another personal tid-bit - I KNOW all about what makes villains tick you see - uhuh. Well, you see, the unkind people around the villain when the villain is a child, a teen, or even a young professor, they create the villain, you see... and actually, when the villain realises he/she IS one, and realises all their dark power from the dark side of the force, or from Gaia and the Chaos force (as in the case of the Joker!)... they get really excited and fulfilled because of it.
There's one thing missing then. A "hero" to fight, for them to prove their mettle against. When I was 19, I found one, of a sort. But that's enough about me.
But anyway - the villains go out LOOKING for one, you see! If they didn't have an adversary, THEY would have to invent one!
Liz: I love what you're saying here about how villains would invent a hero if one didn't arise. However, to answer both your comment and Brandon's about how Scarecrow and Ducard were already operating before Batman came onto the scene, I agree. However, Batman's presence did force their hand, did it not? It led to escalation in terms their timeline at least, if not in the scale of their activities.
As for Batman and compassion, I got the sense that he tried it once with Ducard, but it didn't work, so at the climax of the film, he basically vows not to make that mistake again, and lets Ducard die. To me this signalled a significant switch for Bruce Wayne/Batman. If Ducard was any other person, he would have saved him. But seeing as he was a villain--a super villain, as it were--Wayne could let him die and not think twice about it. Clearly he is applying a different standard of morality to villains than he does to everyone else, hence my comments.
I also find your comments about deterrance interesting, Brandon. I happen to have a degree in sociology with a concentration in youth crime, particularly the processing of young offenders through the justice system. (I even worked in youth custody for a time.) What I learned through my studies is that even though fear of consequence does have a deterrant effect on crime, it is minimal, because usually the forces pushing people into a life of crime are far stronger than any potential retribution they may face. Plus, as I stated in my review, fear of retribution usually just makes people try harder to get away with things. The hubris of the criminal is that most don't think they'll ever get caught. So often they don't even worry about consequences, because they don't believe they'll ever have to face them. They're too talented, clever, quick, etc. I believe the same applies to super villains. they're the best example of hubris I can think of.
At any rate, thanks for the comments, guys. I really enjoy this discussion.
Oh, and how can I still like Dark Knight? For the same reason I still like this Batman. He's just such an intriguing character. He allows me to delve into my own dark side--in a safe way--and confront what I find there. After all, we're a lot more like the Batman than we like to believe. Miller's series allows this sort of vicarious dalliance even more than most batman stories, because it's so hardcore and unrepentant. I'll have a review of the original DK series as well as DK2 up on this site sometime in July. Watch for it!
Oh, that's when it's coming! I'll wait for it!
Oh, but, Kevin, I should have guessed you were (once) a probation officer!!
But you didn't try any "Dark Knight" tactics on your "charges", now?
They don't want to be bullied any more than they've already been bullied, I rather think...
Still, it was interesting to hear about your experienced background.
Yes, super villains. "The best example of hubris I can think of."
Isn't this what makes them MAGNIFICENT, though, in the comics, Kevin? Isn't that what makes all teen villain wannabees (actually, that would be a portrait of my psyche as a young woman! I'm more calm and cynical these days...) gasp with admiration??
If crime WERE as romantic as it was presented in (older) comics, I would already BE there... if there were a Gotham City.
I can't say plainer than that!
Of course, most real-life crime is little and small and mean, and people are forced into it by economic circumstances, usually very sordid.
But IF it were TRULY like in comics... Or "Dick Turpin" stories... Or "Robin Hood" stories... Then this gal, being a romantic, would already BE there...
Incidentally, I HAVE read a book by a guy, a British bank robber, Noel "Razor" Smith - a great guy and some day I plan to visit him, it's the least I can do for the brilliant autobiography he's written, "A Few Kind Words And A Loaded Gun", which details the facts about this guy, of London Irish parentage 1) he was more-or-less forced into crime, by economics, as were so many working class South London boys 2) he was ALSO inspired by the exploits of the above mentioned largely fictional characters, and although he did not HATE police in fiction - eg the fictional British policeman "Dixon of Dock Green", he always found the criminals on TV, movies etc "more interesting."
So there!
Oh yeah, and when he was in his early teens his fate was sealed, by a gang of plainclothes police thugs picking up him and a friend for something he didn't do, and beating the tar out of the two schoolboys. He never forgave them after that (nor did they him, and still they persecuted him, because he decided to turn the tables on them and prove he'd been falsely accused - and him being much quicker-thinking than they (criminals ARE talented, you know!) that wasn't impossible to do; and once they'd been shown up in court they persecuted him all the more... He was sent to Borstal, which made him worse, (it's ALWAYS worse for the rebels, PARTICULARLY for those that show even an iota of left-wing thought, however embryonic - of course, blacks and Irish very often DO, now, Kevin...)
Authorities are always wanting to make them "conform", he was no exception, all they had for him was solitary confinement, (as a KID!!!) and he ended up as an armed bank robber - and what they call a Teddy boy - a 50s-style gang rocker who many American gangbangers would probably find amusing - that IS, until he pulled his razor out!!)
Are you glad it's not? Crime's not as romantic/exciting as it is in comics/fiction/"Ocean's Eleven"?? I mean?
I'm not!!
Anyway, somewhere else I DO say: there are only TWO basic alternatives for the non-bourgeois outlook:
1) crime
2) socialism.
(I know that you're going to say liberalism! BUT that's basically bourgeois. Read Jack Henry Abbott.)
I don't think criminals (would) very much MIND superheroes, though. They would think that THEY were sporting!! Yes, that's the word, "sporting"!
(I know they would, BECAUSE I can see things from their point of view.)
They WOULD - and DO - mind
1) Cops who kick them around
2) Prison pigs who kick them around
3) Snotty bourgeois judges
4) Prison regimes which are really boring, (when not actually dangerous to health), rich in nothing but sensory deprivation, soul-destroying, etc etc etc.
ACTUALLY - though Frank Miller mentions this NOWHERE... a far-less-celebrated, far more sensible, probably more talented and definitely more TRADITIONAL comic book writer, Mike Barr, mentioned just THIS topic in the Batman comics sometime in the earlier 80s - ie, that it was the prisons that made all the criminals worse, madder, etc, etc.
But WHO listened to him?
DID YOU?
No, but you (and Dennis O'Neil who I believe to be ALSO truly at fault, and an utter sell-out) went for the Frank Miller, didn't you! Machoites!!
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Kevin, where are you?
Where is EVERYONE this weekend?
I think they must be out in the summer sunshine. They're certainly not reviewing it seems like ANY of the movies on anyone's blog right now...
What's Canadian summer like where you are?
Liz: I'm sorry for not responding; I have been enjoying the holidays--Canada Day, to be exact--although it hasn't felt too much like summer yet, like the weather is still trying to make up its mind.
I also need to let you know that I deleted your review of Batman Begins for two reasons: 1) It exceeded the 500-word limit for comments that I set a few weeks back and, 2) The comments section of this web site is for discussion about the reviews on HJ.com, not for posting your own countervailing reviews. I'm sure you can imagine what this comments section would become if everyone started doing that. If you want to do your own reviews of films, I encourage you to do it on your own blog.
OK, OK, Kevin, keep your 'air on, as they say in SE London!
No, actually, I DIDN'T know that one wasn't allowed to post "one's own 'countervailing' reviews, of any length!!"
Only "comments" - however one wants to distinguish them from "reviews" - "comments" can also be "reviews", can't they, even if slightly shorter/more informal??
Or are "comments" supposed to be more in the spirit of "discussions" - ie responses to sth. someone ELSE has already posted, yourself or another poster??
(I've already done a lot of those, trouble with those is that they tend to stray off-topic, as "discussions" do - I thought that you would MORE appreciate something that was MORE closely connected with the matter at hand!)
Ho hum...
I have a feeling IMDb.com wouldn't very much mind if I posted a "review" as a "comment" on their boards.
Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows!
Hmm. I'll see what Maurice has to say.
Oh, and it's NOT my fault if not more comments appear underneath your review of a particular movie... It's completely at random, on this board, it seems to me, what responses anything gets... I just revisited Maurice's "Buffy" page, which is yonks old - and someone was posting there again...
Actually, I don't think that many of the Christians using this site were particularly inspired by Batman Begins, in either way, positively or negatively. It certainly doesn't look that way.
Maurice's review of the same movie has a few more entries underneath it, but that is largely because a guy called Sam Ewing was posting his own (not very on-topic) comments on shamanism in comics there. Or was it on the next entry? No, I think it was on that page, and maybe one other.
So - don't - blame - ME!!!
P.S. - Yes, Kevin, I CAN, indeed, imagine what "this comments section would become"... it would have a LOT more comments on it, like the IMDB boards do!
That's what!
And I have "done so on my blog"... but I'm not sure if it's up there. Must go and check, maybe re-post... I wrote it all in Notepad just for that purpose!
As for Miller's Batman being "harcore and unrepentant" and you "loving it" as the McDonalds slogan goes... hmm. Well. I look forward to the soon-forthcoming review of "DKR" which may serve to liberate your "inner fascist", Kevin!
Ok, so we're all allowed to have fantasies which we would NEVER do in reality... Like my admiring of O'Neils Joker in the classic 70s story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", before mentioned by me...
BUT, Kevin, there is NO dichotomy, NO disconnect, at least, between my basic admiration of THAT kind of character - and his hard-edged behaviour - AND my POLITICS, Kevin, which as you know, are the MOST core part of my being - that and the archetypes.
My admiration of fictional no-goodniks doesn't conflict with my POLITICS, Kevin - unlike, I think, your admiration for Frank Miller!
WHY? Because - well, true revolutionaries kill TOO, Kevin, so I don't have to feel too 'conflicted' when the Joker does it! In fact, I can cheer him on, thinking, yes, I might do that myself, given the corresponding situation... Even if one thinks one wouldn't and society as one knows it in one's own life is too polite to permit that sort of behaviour...
"Just put me in a Spanish Civil War situation, and I'll show 'em!" I sometimes think.
Of course, the true revolutionary does not kill for NOTHING... still, I don't believe comic book stories where villains do, either. And the revolutionary likes to think his or her behaviour more idealistically motivated than that of your average comic book villain....
But... In THAT story, the Joker was killing his henchmen, not "just because he felt like it", as the stupid article on Wikipedia about him implies - but because they are snitching on him and he wants to a) stop it and b) punish them!
Practical revenge.
Revolutionaries HATE it when other people in the movement RAT THEM OUT, as well... We can't have it; therefore we kill for precisely the same reasons (in similar situations); and so do ALL resistance movements worth their salt, ie the Jewish resistance movements in the Nazi concentration camps!
All "secret societies", including gangsters, do it!
At least I'M CONSISTENT, Kevin. Politically consistent.
Whereas your cheering on Miller's Batman and yet mourning the fate of Ducard in this movie... what DID happen to him, by the way? I think I might have fallen asleep for a few seconds by the end!
So did he die, or not? Or was it unclear?
Anyway, you're weird!!
I AGREE with large sections of your review, above, Kevin. I think that the Batman should endeavour to think more positively, to reform criminals, not just to put all the emphasis on "scaring" them or "deterring" them, which you're quite right, doesn't work...
But he's only just starting out in "Batman Begins", Kevin, GIVE the man a chance! I mean, even I did... I really want to watch the sequel, even though I've heard certain things about it on IMDb, eg. the Joker - this time - being the criminal who scars Harvey Dent at his trial... well, I don't like that, because a) I'm a traditionalist b) I'm a Joker-supporter and therefore resent ALL the attempts by everyone to blame EVERYTHING that goes awry in Gotham on the clown! (We always get blamed, these days!)
But I'd still like to see it; especially if they get a good actor for the Joker; some of the suggestions from people on IMDb.com are better than others... Anyway, I bet he'll still steal the show from Bale; unless Nolan picks a pathetic actor to stop that happening.
Wouldn't put it past him; he's a weirdo director. Probably thinks he's Michael Moore crossed with Federico Fellini crossed with Ang Lee.
Final comment on Ducard: Batman saved him once - how many times is he SUPPOSED to pull the guy's nuts out of the fire? I agree, if this was an OLD movie/TV series, he would save him again, without hesitation.
But... movies ain't like that no more, Kevin, sadly!
Anyway: I think the villains REALLY must realise that their ol' pal the Batman has LIMITS - yes, we LIKE setting those, don't we Kevin... he's human, he has a temper (which they should occasionally do something to pacify), and that it's possible for them to hurt his feelings, put him off them, break the bond with him, etc... In FACT, I think the Joker realised that fact most PERFECTLY in the traditional-style comics, and like a grade school boy vs. a stern but kindly teacher, he ALWAYS knew JUST how far to push it with the Bat... And it is THAT sensibility that modern villains have lost.
I didn't care ENOUGH about Liam Neeson's Ducard to be bothered or NOT whether he saved him, in this movie, though Kevin... (though, again, it might have set a greater note of idealism if he had... Actually I was more bothered about him tethering Boss Falcone to the searchlight to make a proto-batsignal... because in REAL life, which this movie tried to be, if you did that to a guy for any length of time you'd COOK him; give him third-degree burns... The idea was to TRY him in a court of law, not to kill him... I really don't think the Batman would have risked that, however spectacular the effect!!)
Well maybe it was subliminally intended to tell Americans that Abu Ghraib tortures and tying Iraqis up in strange positiions was "justified"!
Anyway, I'd be more worried about weird inconsistencies like that than whether Bats kept saving some boring, weird, unexplainable Orientalist bullshitter who kept driving me and everybody else in the theatre to absolute boredom with his stupid pronouncements! Yoda, he was NOT!!
I wasn't as put off by Ducard as most, perhaps because I have never really given Nietschze a thorough read. However, I did make the same observation re: the heat emanating from the searchlight as you did. It would have fried him. But the filmmakers knew that--seeing as they work with such lights all the time. They just thought it would be a cool idea, which it was. It was just another example of how Batman improvised his image (at least according to Nolan). I thought it was a nice touch.
RESPONSE TO LIZ: COMMENTS IN CAPS BELOW.
As for Miller's Batman being "harcore and unrepentant" and you "loving it" as the McDonalds slogan goes... hmm. Well. I look forward to the soon-forthcoming review of "DKR" which may serve to liberate your "inner fascist", Kevin!
JUST RE-READ DK2 AND WILL MOVE ON TO THE ORIGINAL SERIES SHORTLY—RIGHT AFTER I REVIEW THE MOST RECENT ISSUES IN THE INFINITE CRISIS SERIES AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER TITLES. MY DANCE CARD IS REALLY FULL RIGHT NOW.
Ok, so we're all allowed to have fantasies which we would NEVER do in reality... Like my admiring of O'Neils Joker in the classic 70s story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", before mentioned by me... I REALLY NEED TO GET MY HANDS ON THIS. DO YOU KNOW OF A RE-PRINT VERSION? (CAN’T AFFORD THE ORIGINALS)
BUT, Kevin, there is NO dichotomy, NO disconnect, at least, between my basic admiration of THAT kind of character - and his hard-edged behaviour - AND my POLITICS, Kevin, which as you know, are the MOST core part of my being - that and the archetypes.
My admiration of fictional no-goodniks doesn't conflict with my POLITICS, Kevin - unlike, I think, your admiration for Frank Miller! I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THAT, LIZ. I ADMIRE MILLER’S TONE AND STYLE MORE THAN HIS POLITICS. IT WAS THE WAY HE TOLD THE STORY THAT I REALLY LOVED. YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN’T EVEN DISCUSSED MILLER’S TAKE ON ELEKTRA. EVER READ HIS SEVEN-PART MINI-SERIES (ELEKTRA: ASSASSIN)? ONCE AGAIN, POLITICS ASIDE, IT’S AN AMAZING USE OF THE MEDIUM.
WHY? Because - well, true revolutionaries kill TOO, Kevin, so I don't have to feel too 'conflicted' when the Joker does it! In fact, I can cheer him on, thinking, yes, I might do that myself, given the corresponding situation... Even if one thinks one wouldn't and society as one knows it in one's own life is too polite to permit that sort of behaviour... HAVE YOU READ MY REVIEW OF WAR OF THE WORLDS? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE CONCEPT OF “SELF-SACRIFICIAL LOVE OF THE ENEMY�? I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE KILLING PART. KILLING ONLY LEADS TO MORE KILLING. THERE’S NO END TO IT. WANT TO READ A BOOK THAT WILL CHALLENGE YOUR PRECONCEPTIONS ON THIS TOPIC? CHECK OUT “THE UNCONQUERABLE WORLD.� THE AUTHOR MAKES A CONVINCING HISTORICAL ARGUMENT THAT FAR MORE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED THROUGH NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE THAN THROUGH VIOLENCE. PLENTY OF HISTORICAL EXAMPLES.
"Just put me in a Spanish Civil War situation, and I'll show 'em!" I sometimes think.
Of course, the true revolutionary does not kill for NOTHING... still, I don't believe comic book stories where villains do, either. And the revolutionary likes to think his or her behaviour more idealistically motivated than that of your average comic book villain.... I DON’T KNOW, COMIC BOOK VILLAINS ARE GENERALLY QUITE IDEALISTIC. ISN’T THAT WHAT THEY DO AS THEY ATTEMPT TO DO IN THE HERO—TALK ABOUT THEIR IDEALS?
But... In THAT story, the Joker was killing his henchmen, not "just because he felt like it", as the stupid article on Wikipedia about him implies - but because they are snitching on him and he wants to a) stop it and b) punish them!
Practical revenge.
Revolutionaries HATE it when other people in the movement RAT THEM OUT, as well... We can't have it; therefore we kill for precisely the same reasons (in similar situations); and so do ALL resistance movements worth their salt, ie the Jewish resistance movements in the Nazi concentration camps! DIDN’T THE NAZIS HAVE GOOD REASON TO KILL AS WELL, AT LEAST IN THEIR OWN EYES? HOW CAN YOU BE CERTAIN THAT YOUR REASONS DON’T JUST SEEM RIGHT, THAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE? WE’RE ALL JUSTIFIED IN OUR OWN EYES. I WAS JUST TALKING TO MY WIFE ABOUT THIS TODAY, NOTING HOW BOTH SUPERHEROES AND SERIAL KILLERS BOTH TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO CORRECT A PERCEIVED PROBLEM IN SOCIETY. THE ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM IS THAT THE SERIAL KILLER IS INSANE—BUT HE DOESN’T REALIZE IT.
All "secret societies", including gangsters, do it!
At least I'M CONSISTENT, Kevin. Politically consistent. I AM, TOO.
Whereas your cheering on Miller's Batman and yet mourning the fate of Ducard in this movie... what DID happen to him, by the way? I think I might have fallen asleep for a few seconds by the end! I WASN’T MOURNING DUCARD’S FATE SO MUCH AS MOURNING BRUCE WAYNE’S DECISION. THE DECISION TO ALLOW DUCARD TO DIE SIGNALLED A SHIFT IN HIS METHODOLOGY AND, BY IMPLICATION, HIS IDEAOLOGY. FROM THAT POINT ON, IT WAS EVIDENT THAT TO WAYNE, CRIMINALS WERE NO LONGER HUMAN. THEREFORE, THEY WERE BEYOND REDEMPTION. AND I SIMPLY CAN’T AGREE WITH THAT NOTION. IF CRIMINALS CAN’T BE REDEEMED, THEN I CAN’T BE EITHER, BECAUSE I’M CAPABLE OF EVERY DISPICABLE ACT THEY ARE.
So did he die, or not? Or was it unclear? DEAD.
Anyway, you're weird!! THANKS!
I AGREE with large sections of your review, above, Kevin. I think that the Batman should endeavour to think more positively, to reform criminals, not just to put all the emphasis on "scaring" them or "deterring" them, which you're quite right, doesn't work...
But he's only just starting out in "Batman Begins", Kevin, GIVE the man a chance! I mean, even I did... I really want to watch the sequel, even though I've heard certain things about it on IMDb, eg. the Joker - this time - being the criminal who scars Harvey Dent at his trial... well, I don't like that, because a) I'm a traditionalist b) I'm a Joker-supporter and therefore resent ALL the attempts by everyone to blame EVERYTHING that goes awry in Gotham on the clown! (We always get blamed, these days!)
But I'd still like to see it; especially if they get a good actor for the Joker; some of the suggestions from people on IMDb.com are better than others... Anyway, I bet he'll still steal the show from Bale; unless Nolan picks a pathetic actor to stop that happening.
Wouldn't put it past him; he's a weirdo director. Probably thinks he's Michael Moore crossed with Federico Fellini crossed with Ang Lee.
Final comment on Ducard: Batman saved him once - how many times is he SUPPOSED to pull the guy's nuts out of the fire? I agree, if this was an OLD movie/TV series, he would save him again, without hesitation. WHEN HE SAVED HIM THE FIRST TIME, HE DIDN’T REALIZE HIS TRUE IDENTITY. SO, TECHNICALLY, THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME WAYNE WAS GOING TO SAVE DUCARD—WHO WAS REALLY RA’S A GUL.
But... movies ain't like that no more, Kevin, sadly!
Anyway: I think the villains REALLY must realise that their ol' pal the Batman has LIMITS - yes, we LIKE setting those, don't we Kevin... he's human, he has a temper (which they should occasionally do something to pacify), and that it's possible for them to hurt his feelings, put him off them, break the bond with him, etc... In FACT, I think the Joker realised that fact most PERFECTLY in the traditional-style comics, and like a grade school boy vs. a stern but kindly teacher, he ALWAYS knew JUST how far to push it with the Bat... And it is THAT sensibility that modern villains have lost.
--
Posted by Liz the Brit to Reviews by Kevin Miller at 7/03/2005 06:38:35 AM
Liz: Regarding your comments about imdb: This web site and imdb have completely different purposes, as I'm sure you understand. The purpose of this site is to give a spiritual perspective on films, etc., as you are helping to do. IMDB is more of a general interest film site.
MORE RESPONSES TO LIZ: COMMENTS INTERSPERSED BELOW IN CAPS.
OK, OK, Kevin, keep your 'air on, as they say in SE London!
No, actually, I DIDN'T know that one wasn't allowed to post "one's own 'countervailing' reviews, of any length!!
Only "comments" - however one wants to distinguish them from "reviews" - "comments" can also be "reviews", can't they, even if slightly shorter/more informal?? YES.
Or are "comments" supposed to be more in the spirit of "discussions" - ie responses to sth. someone ELSE has already posted, yourself or another poster?? YES. I SEE THIS AS A GROUP DISCUSSION. THAT MEANS ONE OR TWO PEOPLE SHOULDN’T DOMINATE IT.
(I've already done a lot of those, trouble with those is that they tend to stray off-topic, as "discussions" do - I thought that you would MORE appreciate something that was MORE closely connected with the matter at hand!) WELL, STRAYING OFF TOPIC IS OFTEN WHERE YOU TEND TO DISCOVER THE MOST. HOWEVER, I’M JUST CONCERNED THAT THE COMMENTS SECTIONS ON MOST OF MY REVIEWS ARE MORE LIKE A DIALOGUE THAN A DISCUSSION. AND I THINK E-MAIL IS PROBABLY THE BEST PLACE FOR DIALOGUE, DON’T YOU THINK?
Ho hum...
I have a feeling IMDb.com wouldn't very much mind if I posted a "review" as a "comment" on their boards. GO FOR IT.
Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows! NOW, LIZ, DON’T GO AWAY MAD…
Hmm. I'll see what Maurice has to say.
Oh, and it's NOT my fault if not more comments appear underneath your review of a particular movie... It's completely at random, on this board, it seems to me, what responses anything gets... I just revisited Maurice's "Buffy" page, which is yonks old - and someone was posting there again... I AGREE. I DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.
Actually, I don't think that many of the Christians using this site were particularly inspired by Batman Begins, in either way, positively or negatively. It certainly doesn't look that way. YOU’RE RIGHT. I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD AT LEAST TELL ME WHAT A DUNDERHEAD I AM. THEN I WOULD AT LEAST KNOW THAT THEY READ THE REVIEW.
Maurice's review of the same movie has a few more entries underneath it, but that is largely because a guy called Sam Ewing was posting his own (not very on-topic) comments on shamanism in comics there. Or was it on the next entry? No, I think it was on that page, and maybe one other. IT WAS AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.
So - don't - blame - ME!!! SORRY, LIZ, I’M NOT BLAMING YOU. JUST TRYING TO ESTABLISH SOME BOUNDARIES FOR EVERYONE!
--
Posted by Liz the Brit to Reviews by Kevin Miller at 7/03/2005 01:42:45 AM
LIZ: Brief response to your review of Batman Begins (which I have now read): The point I most wanted to comment on was the implausibility of the conspiracy theory that propelled Ducard and co. to do what they did. I agree that this was a little far-fetched and unnecessary for the film, a weak point, if you will. However, it did add an international and historical dimension to the film that I wasn't expecting. Thus, it was somewhat of a delightful surprise.
Yes, implausible conspiracy theory... I should cocoa! I had a MUCH better one, though, which NO-ONE on any board or blog - and I've Googled for a few now, and some of the comic book sci-fi type fan people don't all have complimentary things to say about this movie by any means... though the official "critics" all seem tamely in favour of it... It seems to ME, that if they DIDN'T write that most of these kind of movies were GOOD - apart from the "odd" one which they decide to pick on, because they don't like the actor/actress, or because it's "unserious" or something...
Then they'd probably destroy their ENTIRE raison d'etre (and means of existence!) by destroying modern Hollywood and thereby, Capitalism.
(I'm aiming to exploit this, if ever I get into an evil enough, powerful enough situation to do so!! Just warning my friends beforehand! If ever I CAN - I WILL.)
Whereas this would NOT have been the case, had, say, 1940s or 1960s movie critics started providing a lot more rigorous criticism; because movies still weren't part of the military/industrial/entertainments-bread-and-circuses complex that they are now. They worked UNDER capitalism; they had not been coopted to become an essential PART of it!!
Hey, how come I started rambling on this topic? I had a much shorter point to start with - I'm sure that I've put it somewhere else on this site, only I can't remember where... Probably somewhere where I was taunting Maurice and boasting that I knew more about the "real secrets" of "Batman" - ie - the stories which haven't been written yet, but really should be, to make sense of the whole thing... which it looks like only I will be able to write, which is ironic, because I'm not a "comics writer".
But anyway, I have come to realisations that I will keep just about as secret as J K Rowling keeps Harry Potter 7. (Because they're just about as good!)
But there's ONE very obvious one - that I thought of LONG before they thought of this not-brilliant movie plot, that since the movie TOUCHED upon it, I am prepared to talk about to a degree - as I have done on several blogs/open forums recently.
HAS NOT ANYONE BESIDES ME seen the possibility for a "Kennedy scenario" in the Batman comics??
And wasn't Thomas Wayne in "Batman Begins" so definitely a Kennedy?? A Rooseveltian Democrat, as I am trying to convince my friend John aka commonplacebook over at livejournal - he hasn't believed me yet!!
http://www.livejournal.com/users/commonplacebook/101005.html
Well, Wayne senior's this philanthropist, believer in public works and public transport - the Dems over at IMdB have picked THAT one right up - even if the Trots, the Marxists and the postmodernists, it has passed them by!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372784/board/nest/20839964 "Why Democrats Hate Batman". (They don't, it's a Republican lie!)
(This is a REALLY funny thread by the way! Serious too. Make sure you paste it into your browser, Kevin. Just had to go back and find it for you!)
Yeah, and WHAT do you think would seriously happen to such a guy, were he to raise his head in the current political climate!? What would have happened to him in the 90s - or even the 80s!
YOU know, Kevin, Maurice should know this too, that the Republicans have been plotting for FORTY YEARS how to seize power and turn the U.S. on to a permanent right-wing agenda... All the best political websites say so!
So why DO you think Kennedy(s) died? (And your pacifist fave Dr. King, and the more bolshie Malcolm X...)
So REALLY the archvillains in this movie should have been the Republican party... and all its hangers on. The social elite, in general. INSTEAD... they were portrayed as weak, venal 'tis true, but basically stupid fools at the mercy of OUTSIDE (external - foreign) influences, like Rh'as Al Ghul/Ducard - a Frenchman!
So basically this movie was just another manifesto for the Republican party!
Because they never DO dare to follow the TRUE logic, you see, such writers. Joe Chill killed Batman's parents. True - it was in the old comics (1950.) Falcone was behind Joe Chill, it WASN'T just a random slaying. True - they put that layer in sometime during the early 90s comics.
But WHO lies behind Falcone????
Well, who lies behind MOST of the Mafia-related political killings...
I'll give you one guess, mes petits choux....
C.I.A.
The American shadow elite killed the Waynes!!
As they always do! THEY are responsible for everything - not foreigners, cults, nor even Freemasons. And certainly not the U.N.!
DOES ONE REALLY HAVE TO BE A SOCIALIST (paranormalist, but rational) CONSPIRACY THEORY BUFF TO HAVE WORKED THAT ONE OUT?!?!?!
I think one DOES! Because I haven't seen anyone else say it.
Should I have divided this up into about 3 different posts??
Until we get SLEWS of people willing to comment, we shall just have to manage with dialogues.
And I'm sorry I couldn't analyse the Ducard thing better... I really followed the movie right through, almost until the end... I think I got mental fatigue, there... By that time... there was just such a slew of things, and I suppose the hallucinogenic images were a bit tiring to watch... DID Ducard die in that train wreck, at the end.... I think he did! Or was it in a fire...
I don't know... My mind's a BLANK on that part of the film, REALLY... I just got mental fatigue from WATCHING the whole thing - even though I LIKED the fight scenes - so much more convincing than Michael Fn Keaton... and I liked them fast!
But this Ducard person put me right off - although I agree, it set an unpleasant moral precedent! What the Batman said/did to him, refusing to save him... Rather like what happened to Anakin Skywalker near the end of "Sith"... he was more-or-less left to burn to death, wasn't he, by the hero... I didn't notice that.. you SEE how modern pop culture desensitises one (unless there's an OVERT fascist message, or some kind of gratuitous violence against women, I usually greet movie suffering with a yawn, now!!)... I didn't pick up the Anakin thing until a French Canadian pointed it out on Maurice's blog for the movie!
What ARE we all coming to now??
But - it was SURELY less bad than Keaton killing the Joker "accidentally on purpose" at the end of the Burton movie?? (How 80s!)
And WHAT was all this stuff about the Gotham "Narrows"... isn't that a nautical term? Geographical? I don't know, I don't know everything about everything, worse luck!
I didn't know Gotham City HAD a narrows. I know it has a "Crime Alley"...
I see they have the scenario of the asylum being well within the city limits in this one, more of a Bellevue (it looked like Bellevue) than a place in the country, type thing... But WHY would Gotham stick its main water supply conduit under THE LOONY BIN??
(I know, I know, it's just what town planners would do! In New York, and I daresay one or two British cities!)
Oh - and WHERE do you get the facility, to be able to quote vast lines of dialogue?? I actually wanted to take a Dictaphone in with me, but mine's bust, and I hate these notices now saying you're not allowed to take recording devices into cinemas - I presume a Dictaphone is still civilly allowed, for legitimate critical purposes!! But you see - it's just Big Brother over again, isn't it? Everything!
IS there a script of it on line somewhere, already??
Oh, and by the WAY, Kevin.... With regard to the strictures imposed by your "inner Batman" or "inner fascist" (!!!) - s'cuse, s'cuse.... on me and my "inner Joker"....
Didn't you know clowns can't count?? Comedians neither!
Most of us are pretty bad at arithmetic. (Unlike the Riddler, who is probably a whiz at it.)
UNLESS - it's money!
THEN, I promise you, only then, comedians can count!!
(And this is all true - I base it not only on personal biographical details but those of several real-life comedians. (Many famous classic British ones at any rate are known to be avaricious.) WOULD I lie to you??
And that stuff about the Joker and his material appetites in the old comics - THAT all rang true as well, because they based it on the archetypal. Whereas in the later comics, they said he did it all for kicks... which isn't... quite... true!
I have plenty of other brilliant things to tell you, about the Batman - and the "boundaries"/Joker analogy - you're hitting on something TERRIBLY archetypal THERE, you know were you but to know it... you know the Campbell stuff which I don't know, but I know some other stuff, PLUS a lot of genuuine observation... all of which I tried to put up here earlier, but the browser window failed for some reason... Never mind, they're probably better suited to an e-mail.
"Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows! NOW, LIZ, DON’T GO AWAY MAD… "
I don't get mad, Kevin, I just get even! (Reference to stupid K.J. graphic novel by Alan Moore - ask Maurice! The Joker said he didn't get even, he just got Mad... But if you've already BEEN there already... d'you see what I mean?)
But I haven't killed anyone yet! You'll be glad to know. With ref. to discussion on your other board.
You can probably find a bootleg copy of the script at www.script-o-rama.com. However, I tend to make notes during the film and then use a digital recorder in the car on the way home. If I'm stuck for a direct quote, I can usually find what I'm looking for online somewhere.
Thanks for the website tip! I can never make notes in cinemas; it's too dark for me.
(Bet professional reviewers - Ebert etc - use a dictaphone in the cinema. Well, that's when they're actually commenting on what the movie says... not on how clever they want to be about it!!)
BTW - my cryptic comments about the Joker above had meaning, they always do!
So where's your review of the by-me-behated "Dark Knight Returns", then?? And what's all this about "DK2" - I KNOW there was one, I just don't see how there COULD be, after that!!!! I mean... what more is there to tell? Bruce Wayne - or rather Batman, seeing as that is the identity he is left with - marries Carrie Kelly, as soon as she turns 14/16/whatever?? His new teen bride? (That would be a good theme for our hillbilly friend Frank - he just seems like one to me - you can see these kind of sick inappropriate age differences in his "Bin City", as I've decided to call it now.)
Batman dies??
The Joker gets resurrected as a vampire?? (And is played in a movie by Spike - James Marsters - that would be fun!!)
Oh, and Frank Miller agrees with me, that clowns can't count (under most circumstances)... look at one of the FEW good lines (one of the few ANY lines, he's crap at dialogue) he gives the Joker in DKR... I'd have to look at it to quote it precisely, but upon being asked how many people he's offed... what does the Joker say...
Precisely - that he doesn't keep tally!
And I didn't even think of that when I wrote my previous post!
Still waiting - with evil giggles, Kevin!
About HOW you will defend this... bin city writer.
Now that I've seen his actual movie!
Frank Miller is not a patch on Tarantino and the latter's "Pulp Fiction" or even "Reservoir Dogs".
Hello,
I noticed that there has been discussion that Batman should spend more time on reforming criminals. I have often wondered on how that is to be done. At best it is a risky venture for many reasons. For example: The famous superman/superhero, Doc Savage (the Man of Bronze) uses brain surgery to alter the thinking and behavour of the most diabolical criminals. According to the good doctor these criminals are "cured". However, many would argue that what he is doing smacks of Dr. Mengele and American Fascism. Something to think about.
2. Totally unrelated to the previous paragraph is my suggestion that Hollywood in general lacks imagination even when it comes to making movies about supermen. The failure of the movie industry to carry through with Batman vs. Superman is a good example. The differences in ideology alone between the Dark Knight and the Last Son of Krypton would have provided much intelligent conversation. The fact that no one has explored the great potential in making a movie about Lex Luthor, who is obviously the dark side of the superman is another failure. After all, Lex Luthor doesn't believe he is the superman, He Knows He is the Superman, the World-Hero, and a modern day Alexander the Great. Think about the possibilities here; heroic theme music or fanfare for Lex Luthor.
3. Furthermore, when are we going to see a movie revolving around Batman versus Dracula? How could these two not end up bumping into each other? Actually, how can Batman do what he does and not attract vampires who want to eliminate him? Wouldn't they think that he has the audacity to walk among them as their peer while destroying them at the same time?
I would like to see some real creativity and originality in Hollywood. Perchance to dream.
Sincerely,
Sam
Thanks for the note, Sam. We definitely agree on the need for more creativity and originality in Hollywood. I would say the same thing for comic books (as you will note in my reviews of the new Green Lantern and Countdown to Infinite Crisis, located elsewhere on this site). However, with budgets for both mediums climbing, I suspect both films and comics are on a one-way trip toward more conservatism and less originality. The stakes are simply too high to do anything that is too intellectually challenging, I think. That said, a film like Batman Begins offers a glimmer of hope that even the corporate Hollywood system can get it right once in a while. The fact that they hired a guy like Christopher Nolan to write and direct is also a good sign. It just shows that if you want to innovate, you need to prove yourself outside the system first, as Nolan did with Memento. Then you can take your creativity to the next level in terms of budget and exposure.
As far as Batman reforming criminals, at the risk of raising the ire of Liz (a frequent commenter on this site) I would urge you to check out Frank Miller's original Dark Knight mini-series, if you haven't already. By the end of that series, he has come up with a unique way to deal with the criminal gangs in Gotham. Rather than destroy them, he makes them his allies instead. Not exactly an ideal solution, I agree, but it's a step in the right direction.
WHAT is this verdammt "Dark Knight miniseries"??... I KNEW that Frank Miller HAD done some sort of sequels to DKR; but when I asked people, they always got them confused (in later years) with Batman Year One/Two/Three, only the first of which was written by Miller...
So WHERE are these reviews, Kevin melad... Bet you don't DARE do them, because I'm around on the site! Ha - I dare you! To wax hagiographic over both "DKR" and "DK2" - like I said, what the HELL is in DK2??
Oh, DKR was bad enough... I am just SICK and tired of criminals I know well (ya might say, personally) getting accused of being perverts... Never mind about the criminals reforming: what they really need is a bloody NAACC - know what THAT stands for? I'll give you one guess: National Association for the Advancement of Costumed Criminals!!
(After the NAACP, of course. And AAPD. And GLAAD.)
So that people stop ABUSING them - inside the stories and out!
If being a costumed criminal isn't either a disability or an ethnic group or both, I'd like to know what is.
So which miniseries with the criminal gangs are you meaning... Hmm, I hope you don't mean the original four parts of "Dark Knight Returns", because Miller thinks of something really STUPID there, IMO: he makes half the criminals side with the Batman and call themselves the Bat Gang or some sh*t - and they tattoo bats on their faces, yeah right... and they attack the other half of the gangbangers who dye their hair green or something and 'side' with the Joker! Pathetic! (NB: most of this is "off screen" which is another reason I find it unconvincing!)
But the nasty thing is, that the Batman gang use extreme violence, maim and kill "the other side"... which is just Frank Miller's way of getting round the Comics Code or summat if you ask me... he couldn't show the Batman what he wanted him to do, therefore he said that the Batman's "fans" did it!
Well, Kevin, if that's what you mean, then I SHALL be ireful, yes... because in the "real" comics, Batman would NEVER have let thugs go about doing things in his name... especially things like that!! No he WOULDN'T!! He would have been as FURIOUS as my old headmaster would have been, at such an outcome! He would have FORBADE it.
But then, it seems to me that no comics writers - certainly no "acclaimed" ones, have ANY morality these days. For THAT, looks like you have to go to Joanne Rowling and her Harry Potter. And I DID - I just finished "The Half-Blood Prince" last night, after waiting for it in vain from a mail order company, I had to drive and get it from a large supermarket! Great book - but I liked the previous "Order of the Phoenix" best, for the subtle political messages!!
(And I BET no 7 will be a CRACKER!! Well, I hope, I hope I hope! Seeing as it is to be the final END of the whole saga... I hope Rowling takes a good two or three years over it! Well maybe only two.)
Joanne Rowling writes about the greatest subject of ALL, you know... DEATH, and what lies beyond! Hope she finally does it all justice!! (One of her characters appears to be a bit of a Jesus... because he's passed over without leaving a body... that will HAVE to be resolved properly in Book 7!! (Because otherwise you have a character who hasn't died in any natural, or even physically possible, manner - it's like he's passed into the "death dimension" - through the archway - without leaving his body; normally this CANNOT HAPPEN, and so any author worth their salt would have to return to and resolve it.) I hope to see REVENANTS - and MORE than revenants - a great - as Tolkien named it - EUCATASTROPHE - in that one! IF Rowling has a "dark" or morbid ending... she will not have done her theme justice! OH how I hope she will have! Hell... do you want me to tell you what I THINK will happen?? Must happen, for it to make perfect sense... I shouldn't, but I'll say, seeing as this isn't even a Harry Potter blog... *i think Sirius Black will return from the dead!!* shhh.... And that HE will become Headmaster of Hogwarts... The Risen (and Returned) Jesus of the novel!! Though doubtless Rowling won't call it that! But it fits! Because he is "the last that shall be first"; HE, Sirius, is "the rejected among men", "the man of sorrows"!! And of course, though very much down on his luck, he is of an ancient line and all of that stuff... you might like to ponder on that, Mr Ewing!)
(This means I should do an essay about the series for this site!! Yes, Maurice suggested I should apply to join you all as a reviewer. Anyway: THAT is my as yet "unofficial" Harry Potter religious comment - one of the few I ever make, but I'm qualified to make them, I understand Christianity, I read nothing but Lewis for a good couple years!! And Handel's Messiah and Jesus Christ Superstar are big musical - and textual - favourites of mine! Anyway: Sirius Black is Jesus Christ! Hmm, rather have him than a ratpure... Do I laugh?? Yes I do - and I'm also deadly serious!)
Yes, beat HER, Rowling, Miller, you dill. (And now do you bloody SEE why MILLIONS of people worldwide are now buying "children's", ie crossover fiction?? Because the "adult" authors produce dross, so often!)
Yes, and I hope you're reading these my words too, Sam!!
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RE: BATMAN BEGINS
Though my comments are rather late, I hope you read them. I always enjoy your insights on films, but with BATMAN BEGINS, you were a "spoiler" by not hiding the identity of the final twist with "The League of Shadows". Luckily, I saw the movie before I read your review. If I read you first, it would spoiled the movie for me. Just a suggestion.
mick
Mick: Yes, the comments are automatically mailed to me. Thanks for the note. I should probably put "spoiler alert" in front of all my reviews, seeing as I tend to assume the reader has already seen the film--which is probably not the best thing to do. At any rate, it's nice to know I have at least one regular reader out there--other than Liz, that is!
Yes, don't mind me, BTW, folks, I am just the insane jester: the pagan among the Christians here, after all!
Sincerely, Liz K.
P.S. Regarding "spoilers" - I am GLAD I read my J K Rowling before I checked out Amazon.com and co.uk's entries on "The Half Blood Prince" - because they were all FULL of spoilers, hundreds of them... and you should know how important plot is with Rowling; she's basically a suspense novelist! And the Amazon editors do NOTHING about it: they don't edit the posts, or put "spoiler" in big red letters... even though their guidelines say you're not really supposed to put spoilers in reviews!
I think HJ is really usually very civilized in this regard, by comparison. Specially with films.
Oh, and P.S.... sorry for turning the Batman Begins blog momentarily into the Harry Potter blog... isn't that just ME all over... my brain's connected up that way, Kevin... everything's mixed up with each other!!
But I can't find the Harry Potter blog on this site; and wherever it is, Kevin doesn't do it. And I wanted to tell HIM!
And you, Sam Ewing... I DO hope you come back and visit this site from time to time... It's great to have such a truly original intellect, researcher and folklorist as yourself - truly!! (Rarely do I FIND someone who gives me BIG surprises in any department: Rowling is ONE who gives me big surprises; Sam Ewing is another!)
Anyway, for your benefit, Sam, as well as Kevin's, I've just found another "archetypal"-cum-linguistic clue to back up what I've said about the very possible significance of one of J K Rowling's characters; the mage Sirius Black.
Have you noticed HOW his first name (Rowling is a DEMON on names!), not only signifies "The Dog Star" (which has its OWN particular significance in Egyptian and also African mythology, my paranormal studies, though broad, have told me that much!!)
Do you NOTICE, Sam, how "Sirius" is ALSO reminiscent of the name "Osiris"... the Egyptian Jesus, he-rises-from-the-grave archetype?!?!?!
ANYONE picked that out?
I haven't seen anyone on Amazon; and I don't know if I want to go to a Harry Potter fansite with it (I've visited some of the art ones.. they are LUSCIOUS! What illustrators, I'd like to give 'em all jobs!)
Because it might spoil it for 'em. My archetypal knowledge, I mean.
Anyway, if no-one's said it, and I happen to be RIGHT... you heard it here first, folks!!
It's my journalistic training. I love to claim scoops.
Hello,
Liz, in regards to the ideology between Superman and Batman there are differences. Superman, for example, merely restrains human criminals, for obvious reasons Superman won't punch out common criminals (this requires an enormous amount of self-control On Superman's part), knocks out superhuman criminals and monsters (or builds bigger restraints for them), and he turns them over to the authorities. Superman is the Super-Boy Scout always ready to help in maintaining the status quo. He is a Bright-Hero in that most of what he does is out in the open, he is optimistic in that he believes that the American people will strive to do the right thing (Batman ridicules this belief); and then there is Truth, Justice, and the American Way. In fact that particular slogan represents Superman's hope and idealism for an ideal America that doesn't yet exist. Superman is an aristocrat and man of the people with rural American values.He is like the kind father or the big brother who looks after the welfare of the family. He sees human beings and himself as a family. Every once in awhile the father or elder brother must step in and discipline members of the family. Superman is always polite and kind to citizens, polite, but firm to the villains. What mother wouldn't want to have a son like Clark Kent/Kalel?
Batman's view is that criminals and citizens must be terrified and horrified into doing the morally correct thing whether they want to or not. His first approach is not necessarily to kill them, but if that happens he doesn't seem to lose a lot of sleep over it. If he happens to maim them from time to time that is the criminal's fault. His bottom line is to stop the criminal and he is on the thin line between vigilante turned anti-criminal terrorist. Batman is still an aristocrat who believes the masses must be controlled in order to keep order. There is a difference between the masses and himself; you won't get warm fuzzies
from Batman. Fear and superstition is the key to humiliating and crushing fiends, therefore Batman will give no quarter to the fiends, and he expects none from them. When he beats up criminals he feels no pity, after all, you have to be pretty stupid or sly like a fox to want to trade punches with Batman. A person would probably be right in concluding that Batman never underestimates criminals, but he views them in the final analysis as being incredibly stupid to think that there genius can out do his. *With Batman there is the challenge and pleasure of proving one's superiority over the common and stupid.
So Liz, there is quite a bit of difference between Batman and Superman.*Frank Miller makes it quite clear, as a matter of fact one could say Miller favors Batman's slogan that "Criminals are a superstitious lot." Miller uses Batman to ridicule Superman's optimism and trust of human beings.
That is why the Batman vs. Superman movie if well written would have probably been one of the greatest movies to come out of Hollywood. It would have taken a real intellect to write that story.
I'm not really interested in the Batman comics where they included a vampire scenario. I view them as inferior teasers that didn't lead to anything at all. Boring. Dracula may be 19th century, but he is the perennial incarnation of Satan. They don't call him the"Prince of Darkness" for nothing. He always comes back. One could make a strong argument that in this century Dracula would actually enjoy destroying criminals for his amusement and for feeding purposes. This would get the attention of Batman immediately. Furthermore Dracula would find Batman intriguing, even arrogant in presuming to take over his authority as the ultimate ambassador of horror.
Sam: I really appreciate you sharing your insights here. Interesting that one of DC's most popular titles right now is Superman and Batman. I guess they've worked together before in the JLA, but it has always involved some comprimise on each character's part, if the writers were being true to each character's ideology, that is. Frank Miller definitely nailed the differences in DK. Boy, I sure would like to see a Superman/Batman movie like you've mentioned. I wouldn't put it beyond hope. Perhaps you should be the one to pitch it to the powers that be.
Sam's back! But I can't say that I agree with much in his last post. He has obviously been drawn into the dubious "glamour" of the writer Frank Miller, who, as I have said TIME and time again, I find TOTALLY unconvincing, and his, Miller's, ideas, naught but obnoxious. I can think of ONE THOUSAND children's book writers who are better and wiser than him or his ideas.
I think that the person who started the "Batman Begins" comments, in the very first post above, had it far better, namely Mr. Brandon Freeman, and I quote a few of his lines: >The scene where Bruce talks about "venturing into the mind of the criminal" exposes a compassion for them. Ra's al Guhl asks him if he still felt absolute resentment for criminals after that. Bruce said, "The first time I stole so I wouldn't starve, I lost many assumptions about the simplicity of right and wrong." As he said that, we see a scene of him giving a stolen fruit (that HE stole to eat) to another young man that's even hungrier.<
So I think that all these oversimplifications about the attitude of the Batman towards criminals, that both you and Frank Miller seem to share, Sam, are wrong... or are simply not shared by everybody.
He IS a very complex character, you know!! Something which the movies "Batman Begins" and "Batman Forever" both illustrate and espouse; which is why I like them.
All these oversimplifications are just made by fascists anyway... they are the ones in the "reductionist" business, so far as I can see - reducto ad absurdum! THEY would never be capable of writing an antihero like Milton's Satan... or a villain like Loki... a VERY complicated character, as the article on Wikipedia admits - first sensible thing I saw them say in ages! Or a double agent character like Rowling's Severus Snape... or the hero malgre lui Sirius Black (what did you think about my "name comparisons" between him and Osiris, BTW, Sam... I've been all over Harry Potter-related blogs and haven't spotted THAT observation yet! Are you INTO Rowling yet? You SHOULD be. ANY serious mythology/literature student should be - you and Kevin both have left it a bit late, to get with the curve!)
But really, Sam, I think you're MUCH too hard on the Batman... Re-reading your post, I don't think that even Frank Miller is as hard on the Batman as YOU have been...
>Batman is still an aristocrat who believes the masses must be controlled in order to keep order.<... Huh - where does any story say THIS?? Or even imply it - where is there a story where he attempts to control "the masses", or says nasty things about them?? You're WRONG, Sam. Particularly in relation to the OLD (Forties) Batman comics (after all, he only began life half-way through 1939!) My blogger friend John at livejournal has been reading some old reprints... and he's already picked out several stories where the Batman, far from disparaging the masses, makes comments about corrupt bosses of chemicals companies and so on - hoping they all come to a bad end! He was on the right track THERE! But then lots of late Thirties/early Forties heroes were!
>There is a difference between the masses and himself; you won't get warm fuzzies
from Batman.< Funny, I got lots as a child... particularly from the TV version, which I know by means of research is FAR truer in many particulars to the "original" ie the 1940s comics, most of them, than are ANY newer versions.
> Fear and superstition is the key to humiliating and crushing fiends, therefore Batman will give no quarter to the fiends, and he expects none from them.< Why doesn't he kill them then... if not first, then second or third time around?
> When he beats up criminals he feels no pity< see remarks above... >after all, you have to be pretty stupid or sly like a fox [like Mr Joker??] to want to trade punches with Batman.< How come so many of them DO, then... so want? How come they have such a HARD-ON for him... as the Riddler is convincingly portrayed as having in the movie "Batman Forever"? (OK, so in that movie he also has the double motive of getting back at Bruce Wayne too.. who he soon discovers is the Batman's secret identity... and he's discovered it in the COMICS too, so I've read...so these villains are certainly crazy, but not Stupid! Bless'em forever!)
As for "superiority over the common and stupid"... well, Sam, maybe he DID think a bit like that, as a young man in particular... maybe he WAS a bit stuck-up... but THAT was before he MET the Joker, Penguin, Riddler et al.. and was forced to realise... Ah, the lumpen criminal class have THEIR hyper-talented, as well!!
I don't think he thinks they are "stupid". I think he just feels sorry for them... and their predicament.
>So Liz, there is quite a bit of difference between Batman and Superman.*Frank Miller [and you believe THAT fascist misogynist "anti-intellectual" (as David Walsh labels him!)?] makes it quite clear, as a matter of fact one could say Miller favors Batman's slogan that "Criminals are a superstitious lot."< Yeah, but when I see him SAYING that, Sam, in the first comics, I also have the panel image of him in my mind, sitting in his study, musing, hand to chin, not a vicious image at all, but a contemplative one... "Now HOW can I fight these people without any special powers, other than my all-too-human strength and intellect? I know... I'll use psychology! All I need is something to unsettle them, put them on the wrong foot, and then I can gain the upper hand!" I think of him as trying to work out how to do it... intellectually speaking! Well. Some species of bats are also known as "flying foxes"... so who says the Batman is not CUNNING... in that respect, HE is a bit of a trickster, isn't he? But he doesn't use these techniques any more than he has to to survive.
>Miller uses Batman to ridicule Superman's optimism and trust of human beings.< That is a HORRIBLE remark, Sam: I don't think that Miller even SPELLS IT OUT like that, though you're probably right in divining that that's the drift of his... "literary argument", if one can thus dignify it.
Aren't we REALLY saying, though, that "Miller uses his OWN interpretations of Batman and Superman, which he pulled out of his jacksy most likely, to ridicule ALL human beings and any of their better impulses, because Miller is an irredeemable misanthrope?"
>That is why the Batman vs. Superman movie if well written would have probably been one of the greatest movies to come out of Hollywood. It would have taken a real intellect to write that story.< Well, if you think so, Sam... It would at least be better than "The Dork Nite Reruns"... we're talking about a live-action Batman vs. Superman I presume? (Yeah but wouldn't the studios just turn it into "Freddy vs. Jason" - ha ha?) But Kevin's right - if the studios'll wear it, you're probably the man to write it. You have all these ideas and fantasies about "exceptional" people anyway... I worry about you sometimes Sam... you say you are against fascism and that Doc Savage might be that way... but as I have pointed out, NOTHING could be more fascist - other than Nazi Germany - than today's U.S.A.!! And has either of you checked out those sites on fascist boot camps I mentioned... killing the soul of America's kids?
AS for this idea of Batman being horrific... you know what? He MIGHT be, in a sense - but it only works on villains who don't know him very well... ie those who encounter him for the first time! Ie, the Joker, when he saw him first... yes, despite this man's eternal sophistication, I can imagine him giving quite a start... maybe even losing his footing because of it... Batman represents the unexpected, you see... the Sod's Law for all criminals...
But... when the criminals KNOW (and love) him, the "fear factor" can NEVER work in the Batman's favour again, not like it did the first time... has nobody with any intelligence ever bothered to WORK THIS OUT??
Why aren't they scared of him?? Precisely because they know he won't DO anything to them! What - beat them up? Yes, maybe, but only a BIT - nothing LIKE the kicking/nightstick beating they would get from a bunch of aggravated cops!! I know who I'd rather get caught by!
He doesn't carry a GUN; he hasn't got a laser... he refuses to knock them dead with his fists - so what can he DO to them? What have they to fear from him? Nothing. Save humiliation, and curtailment of their freedom. (Which they would get from the cops anyway... and, don't let's fool ourselves; in the absence of the Batman, the cops would catch up with the costumed freaks sooner or later; in fact, the earliest "villain comics" in the series implied that they had... I'll explain sometime if asked.)
Oh, and he doesn't drive a tank, and he doesn't shoot a gun, with or without rubber bullets... THESE were Frank Miller fabrications; as was the idea of torturing henchmen/smaller criminals (by sticking glass in them)... all Miller's fascist ideas, and you can see he supports Abu Ghraib and is behind "our boys" in Gitmo and Iraq every step. I kid you not and I am not being unfair.
Anyway, Two-Face, the Joker, the Riddler et al are NO MORE "terrified" of the Batman (in a "mortal" sense) than they would be of a stern father or of their old headmaster. Neither is the Catwoman. I mean... there's a bit of healthy awe and "apprehension" (and sexual thrill, Messrs Joker and Riddler in particular) going on there... as there is with anyone who you fear is going to punish you - why I have it sometimes with Kevin! But not "horror". So there. I speak common sense.
How are you going to be "terrified" of a guy who you know isn't going to kill you - or maim you? Again, anything which contradicts that statement is a Miller untruth.
So - really - what all the comics and movies tacitly admit, is that Batman's "terrifying" reputation would be at its strongest and most useful when he is NEW in Gotham City, and still an unknown quantity. After that, it would just wear off, when he was no longer a novelty; when he got a reputation for NOT killing, and he would have to rely on other things, like just his detective skills. OH - and the fact that most of the (male, for they are mostly male) villains actually LOVE him. Or respect his intellect; or whatever. Batman gets a lot further through goodwill (yes, on the part of the villains!) and the strength of relationships than he does anything else. This is one of the unstated, tacit truths of the stories. Naturally, again in this era of "Abu Ghraib" etc, it is NOT one they are going to publicize!! Nope, nope!
(But I mean, if he wasn't somehow ADORABLE... (even Frank Miller's Joker seems to be in love with him, interestingly!) why wouldn't they just kill him first chance? And if they didn't SECRETLY hope he was going to help them, ie, be a hero to them, a Doc Savage, a whatever, some kind of benefactor... why, again, wouldn't they condemn him as a fascist and kill him? For being against the working class - which includes the "lumpen" in Marxist terms, the criminal classes? But you SEE Sam, I DON'T THINK HE IS... otherwise they would spot it! And they'd have him!)
As for the powers that be Kevin... yes, while they are still THERE, one can pitch what one wishes to them... who is responsible for making the "final decisions", however, I have no idea...
But the thing we REALLY want to do with those (unelected) powers... is to PLOT THEIR DESTRUCTION... That's what would satisfy me. That is why Kevin will unhesitatingly put me in the Joker bracket, as I have ALWAYS told him he should.
Sorry, BTW, Kevin, but I NEEDED this much space to rebut Sam's arguments... so I split it into two. He says some OUTRAGEOUS things. Couldn't let him get away with that. Stick to mysticism, Sam! (Though yes, I did ask you about your opinions about differences between DC's two greatest superheroes... I didn't think there WERE any, you see... not originally... I thought ALL superheroes (U.S.) believed in "Truth, Justice and the American Way"! (Ie, the separation of Church and State for one thing, which is what the current pressure group "People for the American Way" tries to protect!)
I think all ideas to the contrary are just newfangled nonsense made up by post-Seventies cultural apologists for the Right. TRULY I do.
PS. I think Superman is WRONG and naive to trust "the authorities" - they are all evil, especially these days, and especially in America. George Bush, who would want to trust him?? Especially a "man of the people"? If his adoptive folks were farmers, the FACT of the matter is that they would have long since put him off Bush!! Which is one of the myriad unrealistic things about modern DC efforts...
...the fact that hardly any superheroes would find themselves in AGREEMENT with the U.S. government any more, is what!! Why - because the "powers" are crooked (the Bush whitecollar crime family) and not trustworthy! Even fringe Right-wingers, with the exception of who Sam on another post rightly calls "Public Religionists", namely naive/fundagelical Christians, don't like him!!
So I think Miller was "right" to tease Superman (fans) about this.
But Miller's no better; because he's fundamentally just as right-wing, as his remarks post 9/11 prove.
Hello,
Liz, you are entitled to your opinions concerning my estimation of Frank Miller's Batman, however, unlike you I don't have a strong investment in trying to promote my own personal paradigm of the Batman or take out aspects of the Batman that I prefer or from various periods of time that I know of.
You asked my opinion of Frank Miller's Batman, then you strongly suggest that I favor Miller's view of the Batman, and you appear to be quite upset. *Any one of us is going to have a different opinion and if that upsets you; you might try a different blog where people tend to agree with you. I'm not wired that way.
As far as I.m concerned I don't have a big emotional investment in Frank Miller's take on Batman. However, there is no doubt that Batman has strong aristocratic tendencies(the doctrine of the rule of the best), in any given time, era, or situation his actions can interpreted as fascist. You don't need Frank Miller as a straw man to make a point one way or another. In fact if you've read the book, The American Monomyth: The Superhero (this title may not be entirely correct, but the book is easy to obtain). The two authors of this book point to the fact that American Superheroes tend to be fascist, outlaws, extreme vigilantes, with aristocratic tendencies. *I might add here without being redundant that on Maurice's blog I talked about how many of these superheroes are aristocrats, nobility, and bourgeois. Is this really surpirising. The rest of these supermen in American comics tend to be of the intellectual/innovator elite types who are either successful, working middle class, or nouveau rich like Tony Stark (Iron Man).
These Supermen are take charge people, go-getters, can do type of people. It may upset some people who have a more leftist/folkish paradigm that there don't seem to be any Supermen who are of the folk, who are poor economically, and mentally not very keen. ***Well, the reality is that a Superman coming from the poor folk is a go-getter, is stronger and /or more intelligent than his/her peers and is doing everything they can to get out of the folk environment. Can anyone blame them. Supermen are the exact opposite of the folkish way; they don't belong among the mere masses that's why they are Supermen. They would tend to have a more aristocratic, intellectual, and dynamic outlook. Why should they think and act like insects because the masses (folk) tend to do so? And from the standpoint of the middle class and poor class folk one expects them to be fearful, envious, jealous, and awed of people that display such overwhelming excellence. ***To be frank,many people are entertained by the notion of Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. but most people would not want them living in their neigbhorhood. These Supermen would be a reminder of their own lack of initiative, intelligence, strength, courage etc.
*** Now, to answer the real question that you have in the back of your mind about what my perspective is. I think that your question to me concerning Frank Miller also concerns what my perspective is; I'll tell you. My experience is that as an African American I've had to deal with the folkish masses in my ethnic group who hate achievement, they won't stop at mere ridicule and harassment. They will use violence to stop an African American from achieving some form of excellence. Then there is the white folkish who are afraid and shocked by an African American who is stronger, more intelligent, and more goal oriented than they are. They respond by verbal harassment and trying to fire the aspiring black from their job with false allegations; even to trying to ruin the black person's future prospects in finding another job. Finally, you have the equally shocked white intelligentsia who are the gate-keepers making sure that any minority who gets this far will be stopped at a certain point. My point is having experienced a life time of this type of behavior from the Folk, I don't particularly care about their values. Their values are quite low. I'm interested in the best not the worst. I think that I should be able to strive and work to be be