Batman Begins
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
Batman Begins is the first truly great superhero film. While most superhero films tend to emphasize spectacle over story, Batman Begins is more like a character study masquerading as an action movie. Like Bruce Wayne, this film only resorts to superheroics when all other avenues are exhausted. And when writer/director Christopher Nolan does employ such tactics, he mirrors Batman by treating them as necessary evils rather than big set pieces. During most fight or chase scenes, for example, the camera is so close to the action that all we really observe is the suggestion of action rather than the action itself. This is yet another reflection of Batman’s philosophy: Results are what matter, not how pretty you look as you achieve them. That’s not to say this film—or Batman—does no appreciate the value of theatrics. Exactly the opposite. But both Batman and Nolan realize that if you’re going to create a spectacle—a myth, even—you had better be able to back it up with rock-solid substance. So before the climactic, “all hope is lost if the hero doesn’t succeed” chase sequence, Nolan spends most of the movie creating just that: substance.
Beginning with Bruce Wayne’s training in the Himalayas at the hands of the mysterious Ducard, Nolan feeds us a steady stream of questions regarding justice, fear, identity, anger, guilt, and vengeance. While Wayne doesn’t necessarily embrace everything Ducard has to say on these topics, Ducard’s tutelage is crucial in shaping the type of man Wayne will become. Ducard helps him refine his vision, overcome his fears, and find a constructive channel for his rage.
When Wayne returns to Gotham—a city so rife with corruption that Ducard and his nefarious “League of Shadows” sees no other solution than to destroy it—he determines to prove that even Gotham can be redeemed. He is not exactly sure how he will do it. But, little by little, he assembles the equipment, the personnel, the tactics, and, most importantly, the persona that will enable him to pull it off.
Wayne’s first forays as Batman are not exactly graceful. But the more experienced he becomes, the more success he experiences. Soon, his mere presence in the city begins to have the desired effect. Criminals are stricken with terror at the mere mention of his name, and crime begins to wane. It isn’t long before the myth begins to overshadow the reality, and Batman becomes exactly what Ducard promised: More than a man, he has become a legend.
But has Batman—Bruce Wayne—become a hero? That is the question that lurks at the heart of this film. Of all the heroes in the DC Comics universe, Batman skates closest to the fine line that separates superheroes from supervillains, because his quest for justice is so strongly tainted with vengeance, his methodology so riddled with fear and violence. Unlike Superman, for example, Batman isn’t on a self-sacrificial quest to save society from evil. For Batman—for Bruce Wayne—his fight against injustice is personal, a direct response to the murder of his parents. Among other things, this aspect of his ideology frees him to use tactics that his other (arguably) more heroic comrades will not. It also makes him one of the most intriguing heroes around. Like us, he is a complex mixture of good and evil. Even though Batman has learned to channel and control his dark side, at times we wonder if it is really the other way around—that his dark side has learned to channel and control him. This is what keeps us coming back for more, because we often wonder the same thing about ourselves.
In this film at least, Wayne does see a clear line of demarcation between him and his enemies. Namely, Wayne regards himself as compassionate, whereas his enemies are not. Early in the film when Wayne refuses to kill someone at Ducard’s command, Ducard chides him for his hesitancy, saying, “That is a weakness your enemy will not share.”
“Exactly,” Wayne replies. “That’s why it’s so important.” People like Ducard will kill to achieve their goals, even wipe out an entire city of innocent civilians, if necessary. But while Wayne may not always prevent the death of his enemies—even when it is within his power to do so—he will not cause their death by his own hand. And certainly he will not wittingly injure or kill civilians in his quest for justice. This difference, Wayne figures, places him at least one step higher on the moral ladder than his villainous counterparts. Perhaps. But I believe Wayne’s unwillingness to extend compassion to everyone—including his enemies—is his greatest weakness, a flaw in his ideology that will eventually bring Gotham City crashing down around his pointy ears.
To understand why I think this, we need to jump ahead to one of the final scenes in the film when Lieutenant Gordon raises the question of escalation. He notes that the stronger Gotham’s forces of justice become, the more determined their enemies will become in response. “If we use Kevlar, they’ll use armor-piercing rounds.” Batman isn’t too fazed by this, confident that no matter what the villains come up with, he can create something even more powerful to defeat them. This may be true, but it also points to an inevitable clash between ideology and methodology—between goals and means—a problem that plagues not just Batman but all superheroes.
Screenwriting guru Robert McKee hints at this problem in his book Story, where he states that the hero of a story creates the rest of the cast. What he means is, once a writer creates a hero with specific abilities and character qualities, he or she then creates the rest of the characters based on their ability to showcase certain aspects of the hero. If a hero is generous, the writer will ensure the hero encounters characters that elicit this aspect of his or her character. If the hero is clever, the writer will put him or her in conflict with an equally clever antagonist.
As I thought about McKee’s statement, it occurred to me that this principle is particularly true in the world of superheroes. When you create a godlike hero, you must create godlike villains for him or her to overcome. After all, what’s the point of creating a nearly indestructible character like Superman if the only people he ever goes up against are petty thieves? Sooner or later, a character that is capable of saving the world must be pitted against a villain capable of destroying the world. Otherwise, readers/viewers will lose interest.
Let’s set the question of entertainment value aside for a moment though and pretend that the world of Gotham were real. If so, the evolution of supervillains would be a natural response to the presence of superheroes. For instance, in Batman Begins, it isn’t long before the criminals of Gotham realize they need to make some drastic changes to their tactics if they hope to remain in business. It’s a simple market reality: The more powerful Batman becomes, the more powerful they must become. If Batman is stealthy, they must become even stealthier. If he develops technology to help him in his crime-fighting efforts, they must develop even better technology. If he responds to their actions with violence, they must respond with even more violence. If Batman becomes, in effect, super-powered; they must also become super-powerful. Thus, the escalation Gordon predicted will come true.
In this sense, Batman becomes his own worst enemy, because his very presence in Gotham assures that more and stronger villains will continue to arise. Rather than serve to stabilize society then, Batman actually becomes a destabilizing force instead. This is the clash between ideology and methodology I mentioned earlier: Batman thinks he can adopt the criminals’ methodology (except for murder) and yet still remain true to his ideology. But, as Gordon foresees, the best such a schema can do is forestall the inevitable—mutually assured destruction of hero, villain, and society as a whole. Thus, we can finally see how the limit Wayne has placed on compassion truly does become his greatest weakness: By refusing to extend compassion to include his enemies, he doesn’t weaken them; he actually makes them stronger, thus compounding the very social problems he set out to solve.
Just think about the real world implications of this fact: Today, our primary response to something like terrorism is to hunt down and kill the terrorists. And why not? Surely a motley band of insurgents is no match for the technological and military might of the West. And yet, despite a global effort to defeat terrorism, the terrorists still manage to strike ever more frequent and devastating blows. Unthinkable. Or is it? Could it be that, like Batman in Gotham, the mere presence of such an overwhelming military superpower in our world is giving rise to the very thing that superpower was created to stand against? Like Batman, could the willingness of the West to adopt the methodologies of its enemies—war, terror, torture, etc.—actually be forcing our enemies to become more creative, more desperate, more willing to attempt bolder and more terrifying schemes because they see no other way of achieving their goals? If so, is there any way out of this situation? Let’s see if Batman Begins can provide us with an answer.
Imagine for a moment that instead of becoming the Caped Crusader, Bruce Wayne followed in the footsteps of his father and focused on preventing crime through social initiatives rather than trying to beat criminals into submission. I can’t be certain, but I doubt supervillains like Ra’s Ah Ghul or the Scarecrow would ever arise in Gotham, because without a superhero like Batman, there would be no need for them. Admittedly, Wayne’s effect on crime would not be as immediate or dramatic as Batman’s—and it sure wouldn’t make for a very interesting comic book. But in the long run, I believe it would be far more effective. Rather than intensify the resolve and ability of his adversaries, Wayne’s efforts would chip away at their ability to operate by alleviating the social factors that make crime an appealing career alternative.
If you want to get really radical, imagine if, in his efforts to solve the city’s social problems, Wayne actually extended his compassion to include the criminals themselves. What if, rather than coming up with tougher laws and longer sentences, for instance, he focused on rehabilitating them instead? Who knows? He may just discover that even criminals can be redeemed. As it stands though, Wayne is a lot like us. He tends to objectify his enemies, to view them as evil constructs rather than real people. They are evil by nature, he believes, sub-human even. Objectifying criminals like this serves two functions: First, it releases Wayne from feeling anything toward them, making it easier for him to dispatch them. Second, it frees him from asking hard questions like, “What circumstances caused this person to pursue a life of crime? Has my life contributed to those circumstances in any way? If so, how? What can I do to change those circumstances?” Pursue such questions far enough, and I believe they will reveal that none of us are truly innocent, that we all bear at least a tacit responsibility for society’s ills. I suspect such questions will also reveal that perhaps our desire to vanquish our enemies is really an attempt to vanquish the voices of guilt that plague our soul. That’s why Wayne—and the rest of us—are so afraid to ask them.
Bruce Wayne is correct: Compassion does make him different from his enemies, but only marginally so. His ideology may be different from theirs. But as long as his methodology remains the same, Batman will continue to be as much a villain as he is a hero. The question is; would we really want him any other way? Not if this contradiction continues to inspire movies as fascinating as this one. As for us, that’s a different matter altogether…
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
Batman Begins is the first truly great superhero film. While most superhero films tend to emphasize spectacle over story, Batman Begins is more like a character study masquerading as an action movie. Like Bruce Wayne, this film only resorts to superheroics when all other avenues are exhausted. And when writer/director Christopher Nolan does employ such tactics, he mirrors Batman by treating them as necessary evils rather than big set pieces. During most fight or chase scenes, for example, the camera is so close to the action that all we really observe is the suggestion of action rather than the action itself. This is yet another reflection of Batman’s philosophy: Results are what matter, not how pretty you look as you achieve them. That’s not to say this film—or Batman—does no appreciate the value of theatrics. Exactly the opposite. But both Batman and Nolan realize that if you’re going to create a spectacle—a myth, even—you had better be able to back it up with rock-solid substance. So before the climactic, “all hope is lost if the hero doesn’t succeed” chase sequence, Nolan spends most of the movie creating just that: substance.When Wayne returns to Gotham—a city so rife with corruption that Ducard and his nefarious “League of Shadows” sees no other solution than to destroy it—he determines to prove that even Gotham can be redeemed. He is not exactly sure how he will do it. But, little by little, he assembles the equipment, the personnel, the tactics, and, most importantly, the persona that will enable him to pull it off.
Wayne’s first forays as Batman are not exactly graceful. But the more experienced he becomes, the more success he experiences. Soon, his mere presence in the city begins to have the desired effect. Criminals are stricken with terror at the mere mention of his name, and crime begins to wane. It isn’t long before the myth begins to overshadow the reality, and Batman becomes exactly what Ducard promised: More than a man, he has become a legend.
In this film at least, Wayne does see a clear line of demarcation between him and his enemies. Namely, Wayne regards himself as compassionate, whereas his enemies are not. Early in the film when Wayne refuses to kill someone at Ducard’s command, Ducard chides him for his hesitancy, saying, “That is a weakness your enemy will not share.”
To understand why I think this, we need to jump ahead to one of the final scenes in the film when Lieutenant Gordon raises the question of escalation. He notes that the stronger Gotham’s forces of justice become, the more determined their enemies will become in response. “If we use Kevlar, they’ll use armor-piercing rounds.” Batman isn’t too fazed by this, confident that no matter what the villains come up with, he can create something even more powerful to defeat them. This may be true, but it also points to an inevitable clash between ideology and methodology—between goals and means—a problem that plagues not just Batman but all superheroes.
Screenwriting guru Robert McKee hints at this problem in his book Story, where he states that the hero of a story creates the rest of the cast. What he means is, once a writer creates a hero with specific abilities and character qualities, he or she then creates the rest of the characters based on their ability to showcase certain aspects of the hero. If a hero is generous, the writer will ensure the hero encounters characters that elicit this aspect of his or her character. If the hero is clever, the writer will put him or her in conflict with an equally clever antagonist.
As I thought about McKee’s statement, it occurred to me that this principle is particularly true in the world of superheroes. When you create a godlike hero, you must create godlike villains for him or her to overcome. After all, what’s the point of creating a nearly indestructible character like Superman if the only people he ever goes up against are petty thieves? Sooner or later, a character that is capable of saving the world must be pitted against a villain capable of destroying the world. Otherwise, readers/viewers will lose interest.
In this sense, Batman becomes his own worst enemy, because his very presence in Gotham assures that more and stronger villains will continue to arise. Rather than serve to stabilize society then, Batman actually becomes a destabilizing force instead. This is the clash between ideology and methodology I mentioned earlier: Batman thinks he can adopt the criminals’ methodology (except for murder) and yet still remain true to his ideology. But, as Gordon foresees, the best such a schema can do is forestall the inevitable—mutually assured destruction of hero, villain, and society as a whole. Thus, we can finally see how the limit Wayne has placed on compassion truly does become his greatest weakness: By refusing to extend compassion to include his enemies, he doesn’t weaken them; he actually makes them stronger, thus compounding the very social problems he set out to solve.
Just think about the real world implications of this fact: Today, our primary response to something like terrorism is to hunt down and kill the terrorists. And why not? Surely a motley band of insurgents is no match for the technological and military might of the West. And yet, despite a global effort to defeat terrorism, the terrorists still manage to strike ever more frequent and devastating blows. Unthinkable. Or is it? Could it be that, like Batman in Gotham, the mere presence of such an overwhelming military superpower in our world is giving rise to the very thing that superpower was created to stand against? Like Batman, could the willingness of the West to adopt the methodologies of its enemies—war, terror, torture, etc.—actually be forcing our enemies to become more creative, more desperate, more willing to attempt bolder and more terrifying schemes because they see no other way of achieving their goals? If so, is there any way out of this situation? Let’s see if Batman Begins can provide us with an answer.
Bruce Wayne is correct: Compassion does make him different from his enemies, but only marginally so. His ideology may be different from theirs. But as long as his methodology remains the same, Batman will continue to be as much a villain as he is a hero. The question is; would we really want him any other way? Not if this contradiction continues to inspire movies as fascinating as this one. As for us, that’s a different matter altogether…
—Overview
—Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections
73 Comments:
Well, I think you've got a good point, but you might be missing something. (Or I could simply be reading more into the character than is there.)
The scene where Bruce talks about "venturing into the mind of the criminal" exposes a compassion for them. Ra's al Guhl asks him if he still felt absolute resentment for criminals after that. Bruce said, "The first time I stole so I wouldn't starve, I lost many assumptions about the simplicity of right and wrong." As he said that, we see a scene of him giving a stolen fruit (that HE stole to eat) to another young man that's even hungrier.
The biggest "anger" that we see from Bruce isn't directed at the crooks, but at the corrupt police, those who KNOW better. He's downright ticked at the likes of Detective Flass (Gordon's corrupt partner), causing him to shriek, "DO I LOOK LIKE A COP??!" This isn't to say that the current system isn't working, but that he's disgusted with how they're neglecting it.
Now, true, Batman's presence does aggravate the criminal/insane realm and causes a reaction, but how many of these insane villains has Batman shown true compassion to? How many of them has he literally mourned over? He talks first, then acts. Now, sometimes he slips and acts out of anger (as we all do), but this film really brought out the better side of Batman.
And really, if you think about it (according to the film), Scarecrow was already doing his thing before Bats came along. Ra's al Guhl was already terrorizing the world (possibly caused Bruce's parents' deaths). And if Bruce HADN'T acted, and QUICKLY, Gotham would have been destroyed.
The accurate graphic novels depict Batman working WITH the uncorrupted police force, not ahead of them. That's why he takes time to talk to Rachel, to Gordon, and to anyone else that isn't in this thing for their own game.
I'm not saying Batman's costume is necessary, but the point isn't the costume, it's the symbol. The goal isn't to beat people down when they're bad, but to let them know that somebody they can't see is watching them. To encourage them to never enter that doorway in the first place, and instead live life to the fullest.
Now, for those already insane (due to Scarecrow and Ra's), well, it's going to take a lot more than that. But for the petty thugs and gangs, it gives them a second take on what they're doing, and, while maybe initially for the wrong reasons, they might re-think their life plan.
Again, this doesn't justify vigilantism, but I don't really think Batman is a vigilante at all. Sometimes he slips into that role, but that's when Alfred and co. slap him into shape. Once (in the comics) Alfred actually locked Bruce away in the Batcave for 30 days until Bruce became sober and broken from performance enhancing drugs. He's held Bruce in check many times. Accountability (in all aspects of life) is key.
Brandon Freeman and Kevin Miller, you're BOTH right!! As the wise Sufi judge did say to the two opposing plaintiffs!!
But you CAN'T be both right! (Alternatively as King Solomon in Jewish legend says.)
Or CAN you??
Now, I still haven't yet seen the movie, so I'll withold extensive comments. Though a young socialist blogger friend of mine didn't like it at all... he called it "Batman Begins... to suck"!
But Kevin's review just raised so many wonderful, thoughtprovoking points, that I MUST comment on that alone. (Even though, like Brandon, I don't believe him to be bang on the money on everything. Like Brandon, I happen to believe that Batman in his world these days tends to get BLAMED a lot - by the authors especially - for all SORTS of things that are just out of his control. Maybe the writers think he's a god. He's not; just a particular representation of an archetype, a human, mortal representation at that - and someone who uses the PSYCHOLOGICAL tactics of the shaman - as someone wisely commented on Maurice's blog after his review!
Talented, yes. God - no.)
Hope Kevin doesn't mind if I "go on" - but then I AM repeating his words, mostly! (I liked some of them so much and thought they said things which needed to be said, and which many more apolitical Christians wouldn't say. But he would, because he has the guts to. Good.)
"If you want to get really radical, imagine if, in his efforts to solve the city’s social problems, Wayne actually extended his compassion to include the criminals themselves. What if, rather than coming up with tougher laws and longer sentences, for instance, he focused on rehabilitating them instead? Who knows? He may just discover that even criminals can be redeemed. As it stands though, Wayne is a lot like us. He tends to objectify his enemies, to view them as evil constructs rather than real people. They are evil by nature, he believes, sub-human even. Objectifying criminals like this serves two functions: First, it releases Wayne from feeling anything toward them, making it easier for him to dispatch them. Second, it frees him from asking hard questions like, “What circumstances caused this person to pursue a life of crime? Has my life contributed to those circumstances in any way? If so, how? What can I do to change those circumstances?” Pursue such questions far enough, and I believe they will reveal that none of us are truly innocent, that we all bear at least a tacit responsibility for society’s ills. I suspect such questions will also reveal that perhaps our desire to vanquish our enemies is really an attempt to vanquish the voices of guilt that plague our soul. That’s why Wayne—and the rest of us—are so afraid to ask them."
All true. Well, mostly true to my mind. The COMICS writers, in particular, should portray him TRYING more. (He used to, a bit!) He should also have HELP, he can't do it all on his OWN, because he's not God or even a god, as said. Or an ET, or whatever. Help from who? NOT just the same old characters, not just his servant, Alfred. From NEW characters. Put in some female characters. (And not just ones in skin-tight suits, thanks.) They'll help him and add their female power to his masculine.
That'll do it!
But ANYWAY - WHO was it who FURTHER "machoized" these comics, KEVIN, who was it who made them more violent and less compassionate?? WHOSE Batman treats criminals as "sub-human"?
Why, it is that of your PAL, Frank Miller, Kevin!!
How you can believe the above and still like DKR I really don't know.
Yeah, criminals want to be reformed. Or at least they want someone to have a TRY! They want to be wooed. Even the most hardened ones love attention. I can vouch for that!
But, as Brandon says... and as I myself have vouched... it is the SOCIETY itself that creates the criminals; and when it is not economic necessity, it is that of the micro-society around them. Some people, like Professor Crane, are always destined, because of various factors, to never fit in (even when they DON'T look weird), to be square pegs in round holes, NEVER to be happy... NOT to have the sort of people around them who understand what they're about...
This has been my very own experience.
I hope they present Crane properly, so that I get off on identifying with him!! The way I like to.
Anyway, just as another personal tid-bit - I KNOW all about what makes villains tick you see - uhuh. Well, you see, the unkind people around the villain when the villain is a child, a teen, or even a young professor, they create the villain, you see... and actually, when the villain realises he/she IS one, and realises all their dark power from the dark side of the force, or from Gaia and the Chaos force (as in the case of the Joker!)... they get really excited and fulfilled because of it.
There's one thing missing then. A "hero" to fight, for them to prove their mettle against. When I was 19, I found one, of a sort. But that's enough about me.
But anyway - the villains go out LOOKING for one, you see! If they didn't have an adversary, THEY would have to invent one!
Liz: I love what you're saying here about how villains would invent a hero if one didn't arise. However, to answer both your comment and Brandon's about how Scarecrow and Ducard were already operating before Batman came onto the scene, I agree. However, Batman's presence did force their hand, did it not? It led to escalation in terms their timeline at least, if not in the scale of their activities.
As for Batman and compassion, I got the sense that he tried it once with Ducard, but it didn't work, so at the climax of the film, he basically vows not to make that mistake again, and lets Ducard die. To me this signalled a significant switch for Bruce Wayne/Batman. If Ducard was any other person, he would have saved him. But seeing as he was a villain--a super villain, as it were--Wayne could let him die and not think twice about it. Clearly he is applying a different standard of morality to villains than he does to everyone else, hence my comments.
I also find your comments about deterrance interesting, Brandon. I happen to have a degree in sociology with a concentration in youth crime, particularly the processing of young offenders through the justice system. (I even worked in youth custody for a time.) What I learned through my studies is that even though fear of consequence does have a deterrant effect on crime, it is minimal, because usually the forces pushing people into a life of crime are far stronger than any potential retribution they may face. Plus, as I stated in my review, fear of retribution usually just makes people try harder to get away with things. The hubris of the criminal is that most don't think they'll ever get caught. So often they don't even worry about consequences, because they don't believe they'll ever have to face them. They're too talented, clever, quick, etc. I believe the same applies to super villains. they're the best example of hubris I can think of.
At any rate, thanks for the comments, guys. I really enjoy this discussion.
Oh, and how can I still like Dark Knight? For the same reason I still like this Batman. He's just such an intriguing character. He allows me to delve into my own dark side--in a safe way--and confront what I find there. After all, we're a lot more like the Batman than we like to believe. Miller's series allows this sort of vicarious dalliance even more than most batman stories, because it's so hardcore and unrepentant. I'll have a review of the original DK series as well as DK2 up on this site sometime in July. Watch for it!
Oh, that's when it's coming! I'll wait for it!
Oh, but, Kevin, I should have guessed you were (once) a probation officer!!
But you didn't try any "Dark Knight" tactics on your "charges", now?
They don't want to be bullied any more than they've already been bullied, I rather think...
Still, it was interesting to hear about your experienced background.
Yes, super villains. "The best example of hubris I can think of."
Isn't this what makes them MAGNIFICENT, though, in the comics, Kevin? Isn't that what makes all teen villain wannabees (actually, that would be a portrait of my psyche as a young woman! I'm more calm and cynical these days...) gasp with admiration??
If crime WERE as romantic as it was presented in (older) comics, I would already BE there... if there were a Gotham City.
I can't say plainer than that!
Of course, most real-life crime is little and small and mean, and people are forced into it by economic circumstances, usually very sordid.
But IF it were TRULY like in comics... Or "Dick Turpin" stories... Or "Robin Hood" stories... Then this gal, being a romantic, would already BE there...
Incidentally, I HAVE read a book by a guy, a British bank robber, Noel "Razor" Smith - a great guy and some day I plan to visit him, it's the least I can do for the brilliant autobiography he's written, "A Few Kind Words And A Loaded Gun", which details the facts about this guy, of London Irish parentage 1) he was more-or-less forced into crime, by economics, as were so many working class South London boys 2) he was ALSO inspired by the exploits of the above mentioned largely fictional characters, and although he did not HATE police in fiction - eg the fictional British policeman "Dixon of Dock Green", he always found the criminals on TV, movies etc "more interesting."
So there!
Oh yeah, and when he was in his early teens his fate was sealed, by a gang of plainclothes police thugs picking up him and a friend for something he didn't do, and beating the tar out of the two schoolboys. He never forgave them after that (nor did they him, and still they persecuted him, because he decided to turn the tables on them and prove he'd been falsely accused - and him being much quicker-thinking than they (criminals ARE talented, you know!) that wasn't impossible to do; and once they'd been shown up in court they persecuted him all the more... He was sent to Borstal, which made him worse, (it's ALWAYS worse for the rebels, PARTICULARLY for those that show even an iota of left-wing thought, however embryonic - of course, blacks and Irish very often DO, now, Kevin...)
Authorities are always wanting to make them "conform", he was no exception, all they had for him was solitary confinement, (as a KID!!!) and he ended up as an armed bank robber - and what they call a Teddy boy - a 50s-style gang rocker who many American gangbangers would probably find amusing - that IS, until he pulled his razor out!!)
Are you glad it's not? Crime's not as romantic/exciting as it is in comics/fiction/"Ocean's Eleven"?? I mean?
I'm not!!
Anyway, somewhere else I DO say: there are only TWO basic alternatives for the non-bourgeois outlook:
1) crime
2) socialism.
(I know that you're going to say liberalism! BUT that's basically bourgeois. Read Jack Henry Abbott.)
I don't think criminals (would) very much MIND superheroes, though. They would think that THEY were sporting!! Yes, that's the word, "sporting"!
(I know they would, BECAUSE I can see things from their point of view.)
They WOULD - and DO - mind
1) Cops who kick them around
2) Prison pigs who kick them around
3) Snotty bourgeois judges
4) Prison regimes which are really boring, (when not actually dangerous to health), rich in nothing but sensory deprivation, soul-destroying, etc etc etc.
ACTUALLY - though Frank Miller mentions this NOWHERE... a far-less-celebrated, far more sensible, probably more talented and definitely more TRADITIONAL comic book writer, Mike Barr, mentioned just THIS topic in the Batman comics sometime in the earlier 80s - ie, that it was the prisons that made all the criminals worse, madder, etc, etc.
But WHO listened to him?
DID YOU?
No, but you (and Dennis O'Neil who I believe to be ALSO truly at fault, and an utter sell-out) went for the Frank Miller, didn't you! Machoites!!
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Kevin, where are you?
Where is EVERYONE this weekend?
I think they must be out in the summer sunshine. They're certainly not reviewing it seems like ANY of the movies on anyone's blog right now...
What's Canadian summer like where you are?
Liz: I'm sorry for not responding; I have been enjoying the holidays--Canada Day, to be exact--although it hasn't felt too much like summer yet, like the weather is still trying to make up its mind.
I also need to let you know that I deleted your review of Batman Begins for two reasons: 1) It exceeded the 500-word limit for comments that I set a few weeks back and, 2) The comments section of this web site is for discussion about the reviews on HJ.com, not for posting your own countervailing reviews. I'm sure you can imagine what this comments section would become if everyone started doing that. If you want to do your own reviews of films, I encourage you to do it on your own blog.
OK, OK, Kevin, keep your 'air on, as they say in SE London!
No, actually, I DIDN'T know that one wasn't allowed to post "one's own 'countervailing' reviews, of any length!!"
Only "comments" - however one wants to distinguish them from "reviews" - "comments" can also be "reviews", can't they, even if slightly shorter/more informal??
Or are "comments" supposed to be more in the spirit of "discussions" - ie responses to sth. someone ELSE has already posted, yourself or another poster??
(I've already done a lot of those, trouble with those is that they tend to stray off-topic, as "discussions" do - I thought that you would MORE appreciate something that was MORE closely connected with the matter at hand!)
Ho hum...
I have a feeling IMDb.com wouldn't very much mind if I posted a "review" as a "comment" on their boards.
Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows!
Hmm. I'll see what Maurice has to say.
Oh, and it's NOT my fault if not more comments appear underneath your review of a particular movie... It's completely at random, on this board, it seems to me, what responses anything gets... I just revisited Maurice's "Buffy" page, which is yonks old - and someone was posting there again...
Actually, I don't think that many of the Christians using this site were particularly inspired by Batman Begins, in either way, positively or negatively. It certainly doesn't look that way.
Maurice's review of the same movie has a few more entries underneath it, but that is largely because a guy called Sam Ewing was posting his own (not very on-topic) comments on shamanism in comics there. Or was it on the next entry? No, I think it was on that page, and maybe one other.
So - don't - blame - ME!!!
P.S. - Yes, Kevin, I CAN, indeed, imagine what "this comments section would become"... it would have a LOT more comments on it, like the IMDB boards do!
That's what!
And I have "done so on my blog"... but I'm not sure if it's up there. Must go and check, maybe re-post... I wrote it all in Notepad just for that purpose!
As for Miller's Batman being "harcore and unrepentant" and you "loving it" as the McDonalds slogan goes... hmm. Well. I look forward to the soon-forthcoming review of "DKR" which may serve to liberate your "inner fascist", Kevin!
Ok, so we're all allowed to have fantasies which we would NEVER do in reality... Like my admiring of O'Neils Joker in the classic 70s story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", before mentioned by me...
BUT, Kevin, there is NO dichotomy, NO disconnect, at least, between my basic admiration of THAT kind of character - and his hard-edged behaviour - AND my POLITICS, Kevin, which as you know, are the MOST core part of my being - that and the archetypes.
My admiration of fictional no-goodniks doesn't conflict with my POLITICS, Kevin - unlike, I think, your admiration for Frank Miller!
WHY? Because - well, true revolutionaries kill TOO, Kevin, so I don't have to feel too 'conflicted' when the Joker does it! In fact, I can cheer him on, thinking, yes, I might do that myself, given the corresponding situation... Even if one thinks one wouldn't and society as one knows it in one's own life is too polite to permit that sort of behaviour...
"Just put me in a Spanish Civil War situation, and I'll show 'em!" I sometimes think.
Of course, the true revolutionary does not kill for NOTHING... still, I don't believe comic book stories where villains do, either. And the revolutionary likes to think his or her behaviour more idealistically motivated than that of your average comic book villain....
But... In THAT story, the Joker was killing his henchmen, not "just because he felt like it", as the stupid article on Wikipedia about him implies - but because they are snitching on him and he wants to a) stop it and b) punish them!
Practical revenge.
Revolutionaries HATE it when other people in the movement RAT THEM OUT, as well... We can't have it; therefore we kill for precisely the same reasons (in similar situations); and so do ALL resistance movements worth their salt, ie the Jewish resistance movements in the Nazi concentration camps!
All "secret societies", including gangsters, do it!
At least I'M CONSISTENT, Kevin. Politically consistent.
Whereas your cheering on Miller's Batman and yet mourning the fate of Ducard in this movie... what DID happen to him, by the way? I think I might have fallen asleep for a few seconds by the end!
So did he die, or not? Or was it unclear?
Anyway, you're weird!!
I AGREE with large sections of your review, above, Kevin. I think that the Batman should endeavour to think more positively, to reform criminals, not just to put all the emphasis on "scaring" them or "deterring" them, which you're quite right, doesn't work...
But he's only just starting out in "Batman Begins", Kevin, GIVE the man a chance! I mean, even I did... I really want to watch the sequel, even though I've heard certain things about it on IMDb, eg. the Joker - this time - being the criminal who scars Harvey Dent at his trial... well, I don't like that, because a) I'm a traditionalist b) I'm a Joker-supporter and therefore resent ALL the attempts by everyone to blame EVERYTHING that goes awry in Gotham on the clown! (We always get blamed, these days!)
But I'd still like to see it; especially if they get a good actor for the Joker; some of the suggestions from people on IMDb.com are better than others... Anyway, I bet he'll still steal the show from Bale; unless Nolan picks a pathetic actor to stop that happening.
Wouldn't put it past him; he's a weirdo director. Probably thinks he's Michael Moore crossed with Federico Fellini crossed with Ang Lee.
Final comment on Ducard: Batman saved him once - how many times is he SUPPOSED to pull the guy's nuts out of the fire? I agree, if this was an OLD movie/TV series, he would save him again, without hesitation.
But... movies ain't like that no more, Kevin, sadly!
Anyway: I think the villains REALLY must realise that their ol' pal the Batman has LIMITS - yes, we LIKE setting those, don't we Kevin... he's human, he has a temper (which they should occasionally do something to pacify), and that it's possible for them to hurt his feelings, put him off them, break the bond with him, etc... In FACT, I think the Joker realised that fact most PERFECTLY in the traditional-style comics, and like a grade school boy vs. a stern but kindly teacher, he ALWAYS knew JUST how far to push it with the Bat... And it is THAT sensibility that modern villains have lost.
I didn't care ENOUGH about Liam Neeson's Ducard to be bothered or NOT whether he saved him, in this movie, though Kevin... (though, again, it might have set a greater note of idealism if he had... Actually I was more bothered about him tethering Boss Falcone to the searchlight to make a proto-batsignal... because in REAL life, which this movie tried to be, if you did that to a guy for any length of time you'd COOK him; give him third-degree burns... The idea was to TRY him in a court of law, not to kill him... I really don't think the Batman would have risked that, however spectacular the effect!!)
Well maybe it was subliminally intended to tell Americans that Abu Ghraib tortures and tying Iraqis up in strange positiions was "justified"!
Anyway, I'd be more worried about weird inconsistencies like that than whether Bats kept saving some boring, weird, unexplainable Orientalist bullshitter who kept driving me and everybody else in the theatre to absolute boredom with his stupid pronouncements! Yoda, he was NOT!!
I wasn't as put off by Ducard as most, perhaps because I have never really given Nietschze a thorough read. However, I did make the same observation re: the heat emanating from the searchlight as you did. It would have fried him. But the filmmakers knew that--seeing as they work with such lights all the time. They just thought it would be a cool idea, which it was. It was just another example of how Batman improvised his image (at least according to Nolan). I thought it was a nice touch.
RESPONSE TO LIZ: COMMENTS IN CAPS BELOW.
As for Miller's Batman being "harcore and unrepentant" and you "loving it" as the McDonalds slogan goes... hmm. Well. I look forward to the soon-forthcoming review of "DKR" which may serve to liberate your "inner fascist", Kevin!
JUST RE-READ DK2 AND WILL MOVE ON TO THE ORIGINAL SERIES SHORTLY—RIGHT AFTER I REVIEW THE MOST RECENT ISSUES IN THE INFINITE CRISIS SERIES AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER TITLES. MY DANCE CARD IS REALLY FULL RIGHT NOW.
Ok, so we're all allowed to have fantasies which we would NEVER do in reality... Like my admiring of O'Neils Joker in the classic 70s story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", before mentioned by me... I REALLY NEED TO GET MY HANDS ON THIS. DO YOU KNOW OF A RE-PRINT VERSION? (CAN’T AFFORD THE ORIGINALS)
BUT, Kevin, there is NO dichotomy, NO disconnect, at least, between my basic admiration of THAT kind of character - and his hard-edged behaviour - AND my POLITICS, Kevin, which as you know, are the MOST core part of my being - that and the archetypes.
My admiration of fictional no-goodniks doesn't conflict with my POLITICS, Kevin - unlike, I think, your admiration for Frank Miller! I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THAT, LIZ. I ADMIRE MILLER’S TONE AND STYLE MORE THAN HIS POLITICS. IT WAS THE WAY HE TOLD THE STORY THAT I REALLY LOVED. YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN’T EVEN DISCUSSED MILLER’S TAKE ON ELEKTRA. EVER READ HIS SEVEN-PART MINI-SERIES (ELEKTRA: ASSASSIN)? ONCE AGAIN, POLITICS ASIDE, IT’S AN AMAZING USE OF THE MEDIUM.
WHY? Because - well, true revolutionaries kill TOO, Kevin, so I don't have to feel too 'conflicted' when the Joker does it! In fact, I can cheer him on, thinking, yes, I might do that myself, given the corresponding situation... Even if one thinks one wouldn't and society as one knows it in one's own life is too polite to permit that sort of behaviour... HAVE YOU READ MY REVIEW OF WAR OF THE WORLDS? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE CONCEPT OF “SELF-SACRIFICIAL LOVE OF THE ENEMY”? I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE KILLING PART. KILLING ONLY LEADS TO MORE KILLING. THERE’S NO END TO IT. WANT TO READ A BOOK THAT WILL CHALLENGE YOUR PRECONCEPTIONS ON THIS TOPIC? CHECK OUT “THE UNCONQUERABLE WORLD.” THE AUTHOR MAKES A CONVINCING HISTORICAL ARGUMENT THAT FAR MORE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED THROUGH NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE THAN THROUGH VIOLENCE. PLENTY OF HISTORICAL EXAMPLES.
"Just put me in a Spanish Civil War situation, and I'll show 'em!" I sometimes think.
Of course, the true revolutionary does not kill for NOTHING... still, I don't believe comic book stories where villains do, either. And the revolutionary likes to think his or her behaviour more idealistically motivated than that of your average comic book villain.... I DON’T KNOW, COMIC BOOK VILLAINS ARE GENERALLY QUITE IDEALISTIC. ISN’T THAT WHAT THEY DO AS THEY ATTEMPT TO DO IN THE HERO—TALK ABOUT THEIR IDEALS?
But... In THAT story, the Joker was killing his henchmen, not "just because he felt like it", as the stupid article on Wikipedia about him implies - but because they are snitching on him and he wants to a) stop it and b) punish them!
Practical revenge.
Revolutionaries HATE it when other people in the movement RAT THEM OUT, as well... We can't have it; therefore we kill for precisely the same reasons (in similar situations); and so do ALL resistance movements worth their salt, ie the Jewish resistance movements in the Nazi concentration camps! DIDN’T THE NAZIS HAVE GOOD REASON TO KILL AS WELL, AT LEAST IN THEIR OWN EYES? HOW CAN YOU BE CERTAIN THAT YOUR REASONS DON’T JUST SEEM RIGHT, THAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE? WE’RE ALL JUSTIFIED IN OUR OWN EYES. I WAS JUST TALKING TO MY WIFE ABOUT THIS TODAY, NOTING HOW BOTH SUPERHEROES AND SERIAL KILLERS BOTH TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO CORRECT A PERCEIVED PROBLEM IN SOCIETY. THE ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM IS THAT THE SERIAL KILLER IS INSANE—BUT HE DOESN’T REALIZE IT.
All "secret societies", including gangsters, do it!
At least I'M CONSISTENT, Kevin. Politically consistent. I AM, TOO.
Whereas your cheering on Miller's Batman and yet mourning the fate of Ducard in this movie... what DID happen to him, by the way? I think I might have fallen asleep for a few seconds by the end! I WASN’T MOURNING DUCARD’S FATE SO MUCH AS MOURNING BRUCE WAYNE’S DECISION. THE DECISION TO ALLOW DUCARD TO DIE SIGNALLED A SHIFT IN HIS METHODOLOGY AND, BY IMPLICATION, HIS IDEAOLOGY. FROM THAT POINT ON, IT WAS EVIDENT THAT TO WAYNE, CRIMINALS WERE NO LONGER HUMAN. THEREFORE, THEY WERE BEYOND REDEMPTION. AND I SIMPLY CAN’T AGREE WITH THAT NOTION. IF CRIMINALS CAN’T BE REDEEMED, THEN I CAN’T BE EITHER, BECAUSE I’M CAPABLE OF EVERY DISPICABLE ACT THEY ARE.
So did he die, or not? Or was it unclear? DEAD.
Anyway, you're weird!! THANKS!
I AGREE with large sections of your review, above, Kevin. I think that the Batman should endeavour to think more positively, to reform criminals, not just to put all the emphasis on "scaring" them or "deterring" them, which you're quite right, doesn't work...
But he's only just starting out in "Batman Begins", Kevin, GIVE the man a chance! I mean, even I did... I really want to watch the sequel, even though I've heard certain things about it on IMDb, eg. the Joker - this time - being the criminal who scars Harvey Dent at his trial... well, I don't like that, because a) I'm a traditionalist b) I'm a Joker-supporter and therefore resent ALL the attempts by everyone to blame EVERYTHING that goes awry in Gotham on the clown! (We always get blamed, these days!)
But I'd still like to see it; especially if they get a good actor for the Joker; some of the suggestions from people on IMDb.com are better than others... Anyway, I bet he'll still steal the show from Bale; unless Nolan picks a pathetic actor to stop that happening.
Wouldn't put it past him; he's a weirdo director. Probably thinks he's Michael Moore crossed with Federico Fellini crossed with Ang Lee.
Final comment on Ducard: Batman saved him once - how many times is he SUPPOSED to pull the guy's nuts out of the fire? I agree, if this was an OLD movie/TV series, he would save him again, without hesitation. WHEN HE SAVED HIM THE FIRST TIME, HE DIDN’T REALIZE HIS TRUE IDENTITY. SO, TECHNICALLY, THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME WAYNE WAS GOING TO SAVE DUCARD—WHO WAS REALLY RA’S A GUL.
But... movies ain't like that no more, Kevin, sadly!
Anyway: I think the villains REALLY must realise that their ol' pal the Batman has LIMITS - yes, we LIKE setting those, don't we Kevin... he's human, he has a temper (which they should occasionally do something to pacify), and that it's possible for them to hurt his feelings, put him off them, break the bond with him, etc... In FACT, I think the Joker realised that fact most PERFECTLY in the traditional-style comics, and like a grade school boy vs. a stern but kindly teacher, he ALWAYS knew JUST how far to push it with the Bat... And it is THAT sensibility that modern villains have lost.
--
Posted by Liz the Brit to Reviews by Kevin Miller at 7/03/2005 06:38:35 AM
Liz: Regarding your comments about imdb: This web site and imdb have completely different purposes, as I'm sure you understand. The purpose of this site is to give a spiritual perspective on films, etc., as you are helping to do. IMDB is more of a general interest film site.
MORE RESPONSES TO LIZ: COMMENTS INTERSPERSED BELOW IN CAPS.
OK, OK, Kevin, keep your 'air on, as they say in SE London!
No, actually, I DIDN'T know that one wasn't allowed to post "one's own 'countervailing' reviews, of any length!!
Only "comments" - however one wants to distinguish them from "reviews" - "comments" can also be "reviews", can't they, even if slightly shorter/more informal?? YES.
Or are "comments" supposed to be more in the spirit of "discussions" - ie responses to sth. someone ELSE has already posted, yourself or another poster?? YES. I SEE THIS AS A GROUP DISCUSSION. THAT MEANS ONE OR TWO PEOPLE SHOULDN’T DOMINATE IT.
(I've already done a lot of those, trouble with those is that they tend to stray off-topic, as "discussions" do - I thought that you would MORE appreciate something that was MORE closely connected with the matter at hand!) WELL, STRAYING OFF TOPIC IS OFTEN WHERE YOU TEND TO DISCOVER THE MOST. HOWEVER, I’M JUST CONCERNED THAT THE COMMENTS SECTIONS ON MOST OF MY REVIEWS ARE MORE LIKE A DIALOGUE THAN A DISCUSSION. AND I THINK E-MAIL IS PROBABLY THE BEST PLACE FOR DIALOGUE, DON’T YOU THINK?
Ho hum...
I have a feeling IMDb.com wouldn't very much mind if I posted a "review" as a "comment" on their boards. GO FOR IT.
Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows! NOW, LIZ, DON’T GO AWAY MAD…
Hmm. I'll see what Maurice has to say.
Oh, and it's NOT my fault if not more comments appear underneath your review of a particular movie... It's completely at random, on this board, it seems to me, what responses anything gets... I just revisited Maurice's "Buffy" page, which is yonks old - and someone was posting there again... I AGREE. I DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.
Actually, I don't think that many of the Christians using this site were particularly inspired by Batman Begins, in either way, positively or negatively. It certainly doesn't look that way. YOU’RE RIGHT. I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD AT LEAST TELL ME WHAT A DUNDERHEAD I AM. THEN I WOULD AT LEAST KNOW THAT THEY READ THE REVIEW.
Maurice's review of the same movie has a few more entries underneath it, but that is largely because a guy called Sam Ewing was posting his own (not very on-topic) comments on shamanism in comics there. Or was it on the next entry? No, I think it was on that page, and maybe one other. IT WAS AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.
So - don't - blame - ME!!! SORRY, LIZ, I’M NOT BLAMING YOU. JUST TRYING TO ESTABLISH SOME BOUNDARIES FOR EVERYONE!
--
Posted by Liz the Brit to Reviews by Kevin Miller at 7/03/2005 01:42:45 AM
LIZ: Brief response to your review of Batman Begins (which I have now read): The point I most wanted to comment on was the implausibility of the conspiracy theory that propelled Ducard and co. to do what they did. I agree that this was a little far-fetched and unnecessary for the film, a weak point, if you will. However, it did add an international and historical dimension to the film that I wasn't expecting. Thus, it was somewhat of a delightful surprise.
Yes, implausible conspiracy theory... I should cocoa! I had a MUCH better one, though, which NO-ONE on any board or blog - and I've Googled for a few now, and some of the comic book sci-fi type fan people don't all have complimentary things to say about this movie by any means... though the official "critics" all seem tamely in favour of it... It seems to ME, that if they DIDN'T write that most of these kind of movies were GOOD - apart from the "odd" one which they decide to pick on, because they don't like the actor/actress, or because it's "unserious" or something...
Then they'd probably destroy their ENTIRE raison d'etre (and means of existence!) by destroying modern Hollywood and thereby, Capitalism.
(I'm aiming to exploit this, if ever I get into an evil enough, powerful enough situation to do so!! Just warning my friends beforehand! If ever I CAN - I WILL.)
Whereas this would NOT have been the case, had, say, 1940s or 1960s movie critics started providing a lot more rigorous criticism; because movies still weren't part of the military/industrial/entertainments-bread-and-circuses complex that they are now. They worked UNDER capitalism; they had not been coopted to become an essential PART of it!!
Hey, how come I started rambling on this topic? I had a much shorter point to start with - I'm sure that I've put it somewhere else on this site, only I can't remember where... Probably somewhere where I was taunting Maurice and boasting that I knew more about the "real secrets" of "Batman" - ie - the stories which haven't been written yet, but really should be, to make sense of the whole thing... which it looks like only I will be able to write, which is ironic, because I'm not a "comics writer".
But anyway, I have come to realisations that I will keep just about as secret as J K Rowling keeps Harry Potter 7. (Because they're just about as good!)
But there's ONE very obvious one - that I thought of LONG before they thought of this not-brilliant movie plot, that since the movie TOUCHED upon it, I am prepared to talk about to a degree - as I have done on several blogs/open forums recently.
HAS NOT ANYONE BESIDES ME seen the possibility for a "Kennedy scenario" in the Batman comics??
And wasn't Thomas Wayne in "Batman Begins" so definitely a Kennedy?? A Rooseveltian Democrat, as I am trying to convince my friend John aka commonplacebook over at livejournal - he hasn't believed me yet!!
http://www.livejournal.com/users/commonplacebook/101005.html
Well, Wayne senior's this philanthropist, believer in public works and public transport - the Dems over at IMdB have picked THAT one right up - even if the Trots, the Marxists and the postmodernists, it has passed them by!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372784/board/nest/20839964 "Why Democrats Hate Batman". (They don't, it's a Republican lie!)
(This is a REALLY funny thread by the way! Serious too. Make sure you paste it into your browser, Kevin. Just had to go back and find it for you!)
Yeah, and WHAT do you think would seriously happen to such a guy, were he to raise his head in the current political climate!? What would have happened to him in the 90s - or even the 80s!
YOU know, Kevin, Maurice should know this too, that the Republicans have been plotting for FORTY YEARS how to seize power and turn the U.S. on to a permanent right-wing agenda... All the best political websites say so!
So why DO you think Kennedy(s) died? (And your pacifist fave Dr. King, and the more bolshie Malcolm X...)
So REALLY the archvillains in this movie should have been the Republican party... and all its hangers on. The social elite, in general. INSTEAD... they were portrayed as weak, venal 'tis true, but basically stupid fools at the mercy of OUTSIDE (external - foreign) influences, like Rh'as Al Ghul/Ducard - a Frenchman!
So basically this movie was just another manifesto for the Republican party!
Because they never DO dare to follow the TRUE logic, you see, such writers. Joe Chill killed Batman's parents. True - it was in the old comics (1950.) Falcone was behind Joe Chill, it WASN'T just a random slaying. True - they put that layer in sometime during the early 90s comics.
But WHO lies behind Falcone????
Well, who lies behind MOST of the Mafia-related political killings...
I'll give you one guess, mes petits choux....
C.I.A.
The American shadow elite killed the Waynes!!
As they always do! THEY are responsible for everything - not foreigners, cults, nor even Freemasons. And certainly not the U.N.!
DOES ONE REALLY HAVE TO BE A SOCIALIST (paranormalist, but rational) CONSPIRACY THEORY BUFF TO HAVE WORKED THAT ONE OUT?!?!?!
I think one DOES! Because I haven't seen anyone else say it.
Should I have divided this up into about 3 different posts??
Until we get SLEWS of people willing to comment, we shall just have to manage with dialogues.
And I'm sorry I couldn't analyse the Ducard thing better... I really followed the movie right through, almost until the end... I think I got mental fatigue, there... By that time... there was just such a slew of things, and I suppose the hallucinogenic images were a bit tiring to watch... DID Ducard die in that train wreck, at the end.... I think he did! Or was it in a fire...
I don't know... My mind's a BLANK on that part of the film, REALLY... I just got mental fatigue from WATCHING the whole thing - even though I LIKED the fight scenes - so much more convincing than Michael Fn Keaton... and I liked them fast!
But this Ducard person put me right off - although I agree, it set an unpleasant moral precedent! What the Batman said/did to him, refusing to save him... Rather like what happened to Anakin Skywalker near the end of "Sith"... he was more-or-less left to burn to death, wasn't he, by the hero... I didn't notice that.. you SEE how modern pop culture desensitises one (unless there's an OVERT fascist message, or some kind of gratuitous violence against women, I usually greet movie suffering with a yawn, now!!)... I didn't pick up the Anakin thing until a French Canadian pointed it out on Maurice's blog for the movie!
What ARE we all coming to now??
But - it was SURELY less bad than Keaton killing the Joker "accidentally on purpose" at the end of the Burton movie?? (How 80s!)
And WHAT was all this stuff about the Gotham "Narrows"... isn't that a nautical term? Geographical? I don't know, I don't know everything about everything, worse luck!
I didn't know Gotham City HAD a narrows. I know it has a "Crime Alley"...
I see they have the scenario of the asylum being well within the city limits in this one, more of a Bellevue (it looked like Bellevue) than a place in the country, type thing... But WHY would Gotham stick its main water supply conduit under THE LOONY BIN??
(I know, I know, it's just what town planners would do! In New York, and I daresay one or two British cities!)
Oh - and WHERE do you get the facility, to be able to quote vast lines of dialogue?? I actually wanted to take a Dictaphone in with me, but mine's bust, and I hate these notices now saying you're not allowed to take recording devices into cinemas - I presume a Dictaphone is still civilly allowed, for legitimate critical purposes!! But you see - it's just Big Brother over again, isn't it? Everything!
IS there a script of it on line somewhere, already??
Oh, and by the WAY, Kevin.... With regard to the strictures imposed by your "inner Batman" or "inner fascist" (!!!) - s'cuse, s'cuse.... on me and my "inner Joker"....
Didn't you know clowns can't count?? Comedians neither!
Most of us are pretty bad at arithmetic. (Unlike the Riddler, who is probably a whiz at it.)
UNLESS - it's money!
THEN, I promise you, only then, comedians can count!!
(And this is all true - I base it not only on personal biographical details but those of several real-life comedians. (Many famous classic British ones at any rate are known to be avaricious.) WOULD I lie to you??
And that stuff about the Joker and his material appetites in the old comics - THAT all rang true as well, because they based it on the archetypal. Whereas in the later comics, they said he did it all for kicks... which isn't... quite... true!
I have plenty of other brilliant things to tell you, about the Batman - and the "boundaries"/Joker analogy - you're hitting on something TERRIBLY archetypal THERE, you know were you but to know it... you know the Campbell stuff which I don't know, but I know some other stuff, PLUS a lot of genuuine observation... all of which I tried to put up here earlier, but the browser window failed for some reason... Never mind, they're probably better suited to an e-mail.
"Perhaps I'd better go over there.... Maybe I'll stay over there!! Who knows! NOW, LIZ, DON’T GO AWAY MAD… "
I don't get mad, Kevin, I just get even! (Reference to stupid K.J. graphic novel by Alan Moore - ask Maurice! The Joker said he didn't get even, he just got Mad... But if you've already BEEN there already... d'you see what I mean?)
But I haven't killed anyone yet! You'll be glad to know. With ref. to discussion on your other board.
You can probably find a bootleg copy of the script at www.script-o-rama.com. However, I tend to make notes during the film and then use a digital recorder in the car on the way home. If I'm stuck for a direct quote, I can usually find what I'm looking for online somewhere.
Thanks for the website tip! I can never make notes in cinemas; it's too dark for me.
(Bet professional reviewers - Ebert etc - use a dictaphone in the cinema. Well, that's when they're actually commenting on what the movie says... not on how clever they want to be about it!!)
BTW - my cryptic comments about the Joker above had meaning, they always do!
So where's your review of the by-me-behated "Dark Knight Returns", then?? And what's all this about "DK2" - I KNOW there was one, I just don't see how there COULD be, after that!!!! I mean... what more is there to tell? Bruce Wayne - or rather Batman, seeing as that is the identity he is left with - marries Carrie Kelly, as soon as she turns 14/16/whatever?? His new teen bride? (That would be a good theme for our hillbilly friend Frank - he just seems like one to me - you can see these kind of sick inappropriate age differences in his "Bin City", as I've decided to call it now.)
Batman dies??
The Joker gets resurrected as a vampire?? (And is played in a movie by Spike - James Marsters - that would be fun!!)
Oh, and Frank Miller agrees with me, that clowns can't count (under most circumstances)... look at one of the FEW good lines (one of the few ANY lines, he's crap at dialogue) he gives the Joker in DKR... I'd have to look at it to quote it precisely, but upon being asked how many people he's offed... what does the Joker say...
Precisely - that he doesn't keep tally!
And I didn't even think of that when I wrote my previous post!
Still waiting - with evil giggles, Kevin!
About HOW you will defend this... bin city writer.
Now that I've seen his actual movie!
Frank Miller is not a patch on Tarantino and the latter's "Pulp Fiction" or even "Reservoir Dogs".
Hello,
I noticed that there has been discussion that Batman should spend more time on reforming criminals. I have often wondered on how that is to be done. At best it is a risky venture for many reasons. For example: The famous superman/superhero, Doc Savage (the Man of Bronze) uses brain surgery to alter the thinking and behavour of the most diabolical criminals. According to the good doctor these criminals are "cured". However, many would argue that what he is doing smacks of Dr. Mengele and American Fascism. Something to think about.
2. Totally unrelated to the previous paragraph is my suggestion that Hollywood in general lacks imagination even when it comes to making movies about supermen. The failure of the movie industry to carry through with Batman vs. Superman is a good example. The differences in ideology alone between the Dark Knight and the Last Son of Krypton would have provided much intelligent conversation. The fact that no one has explored the great potential in making a movie about Lex Luthor, who is obviously the dark side of the superman is another failure. After all, Lex Luthor doesn't believe he is the superman, He Knows He is the Superman, the World-Hero, and a modern day Alexander the Great. Think about the possibilities here; heroic theme music or fanfare for Lex Luthor.
3. Furthermore, when are we going to see a movie revolving around Batman versus Dracula? How could these two not end up bumping into each other? Actually, how can Batman do what he does and not attract vampires who want to eliminate him? Wouldn't they think that he has the audacity to walk among them as their peer while destroying them at the same time?
I would like to see some real creativity and originality in Hollywood. Perchance to dream.
Sincerely,
Sam
Thanks for the note, Sam. We definitely agree on the need for more creativity and originality in Hollywood. I would say the same thing for comic books (as you will note in my reviews of the new Green Lantern and Countdown to Infinite Crisis, located elsewhere on this site). However, with budgets for both mediums climbing, I suspect both films and comics are on a one-way trip toward more conservatism and less originality. The stakes are simply too high to do anything that is too intellectually challenging, I think. That said, a film like Batman Begins offers a glimmer of hope that even the corporate Hollywood system can get it right once in a while. The fact that they hired a guy like Christopher Nolan to write and direct is also a good sign. It just shows that if you want to innovate, you need to prove yourself outside the system first, as Nolan did with Memento. Then you can take your creativity to the next level in terms of budget and exposure.
As far as Batman reforming criminals, at the risk of raising the ire of Liz (a frequent commenter on this site) I would urge you to check out Frank Miller's original Dark Knight mini-series, if you haven't already. By the end of that series, he has come up with a unique way to deal with the criminal gangs in Gotham. Rather than destroy them, he makes them his allies instead. Not exactly an ideal solution, I agree, but it's a step in the right direction.
WHAT is this verdammt "Dark Knight miniseries"??... I KNEW that Frank Miller HAD done some sort of sequels to DKR; but when I asked people, they always got them confused (in later years) with Batman Year One/Two/Three, only the first of which was written by Miller...
So WHERE are these reviews, Kevin melad... Bet you don't DARE do them, because I'm around on the site! Ha - I dare you! To wax hagiographic over both "DKR" and "DK2" - like I said, what the HELL is in DK2??
Oh, DKR was bad enough... I am just SICK and tired of criminals I know well (ya might say, personally) getting accused of being perverts... Never mind about the criminals reforming: what they really need is a bloody NAACC - know what THAT stands for? I'll give you one guess: National Association for the Advancement of Costumed Criminals!!
(After the NAACP, of course. And AAPD. And GLAAD.)
So that people stop ABUSING them - inside the stories and out!
If being a costumed criminal isn't either a disability or an ethnic group or both, I'd like to know what is.
So which miniseries with the criminal gangs are you meaning... Hmm, I hope you don't mean the original four parts of "Dark Knight Returns", because Miller thinks of something really STUPID there, IMO: he makes half the criminals side with the Batman and call themselves the Bat Gang or some sh*t - and they tattoo bats on their faces, yeah right... and they attack the other half of the gangbangers who dye their hair green or something and 'side' with the Joker! Pathetic! (NB: most of this is "off screen" which is another reason I find it unconvincing!)
But the nasty thing is, that the Batman gang use extreme violence, maim and kill "the other side"... which is just Frank Miller's way of getting round the Comics Code or summat if you ask me... he couldn't show the Batman what he wanted him to do, therefore he said that the Batman's "fans" did it!
Well, Kevin, if that's what you mean, then I SHALL be ireful, yes... because in the "real" comics, Batman would NEVER have let thugs go about doing things in his name... especially things like that!! No he WOULDN'T!! He would have been as FURIOUS as my old headmaster would have been, at such an outcome! He would have FORBADE it.
But then, it seems to me that no comics writers - certainly no "acclaimed" ones, have ANY morality these days. For THAT, looks like you have to go to Joanne Rowling and her Harry Potter. And I DID - I just finished "The Half-Blood Prince" last night, after waiting for it in vain from a mail order company, I had to drive and get it from a large supermarket! Great book - but I liked the previous "Order of the Phoenix" best, for the subtle political messages!!
(And I BET no 7 will be a CRACKER!! Well, I hope, I hope I hope! Seeing as it is to be the final END of the whole saga... I hope Rowling takes a good two or three years over it! Well maybe only two.)
Joanne Rowling writes about the greatest subject of ALL, you know... DEATH, and what lies beyond! Hope she finally does it all justice!! (One of her characters appears to be a bit of a Jesus... because he's passed over without leaving a body... that will HAVE to be resolved properly in Book 7!! (Because otherwise you have a character who hasn't died in any natural, or even physically possible, manner - it's like he's passed into the "death dimension" - through the archway - without leaving his body; normally this CANNOT HAPPEN, and so any author worth their salt would have to return to and resolve it.) I hope to see REVENANTS - and MORE than revenants - a great - as Tolkien named it - EUCATASTROPHE - in that one! IF Rowling has a "dark" or morbid ending... she will not have done her theme justice! OH how I hope she will have! Hell... do you want me to tell you what I THINK will happen?? Must happen, for it to make perfect sense... I shouldn't, but I'll say, seeing as this isn't even a Harry Potter blog... *i think Sirius Black will return from the dead!!* shhh.... And that HE will become Headmaster of Hogwarts... The Risen (and Returned) Jesus of the novel!! Though doubtless Rowling won't call it that! But it fits! Because he is "the last that shall be first"; HE, Sirius, is "the rejected among men", "the man of sorrows"!! And of course, though very much down on his luck, he is of an ancient line and all of that stuff... you might like to ponder on that, Mr Ewing!)
(This means I should do an essay about the series for this site!! Yes, Maurice suggested I should apply to join you all as a reviewer. Anyway: THAT is my as yet "unofficial" Harry Potter religious comment - one of the few I ever make, but I'm qualified to make them, I understand Christianity, I read nothing but Lewis for a good couple years!! And Handel's Messiah and Jesus Christ Superstar are big musical - and textual - favourites of mine! Anyway: Sirius Black is Jesus Christ! Hmm, rather have him than a ratpure... Do I laugh?? Yes I do - and I'm also deadly serious!)
Yes, beat HER, Rowling, Miller, you dill. (And now do you bloody SEE why MILLIONS of people worldwide are now buying "children's", ie crossover fiction?? Because the "adult" authors produce dross, so often!)
Yes, and I hope you're reading these my words too, Sam!!
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RE: BATMAN BEGINS
Though my comments are rather late, I hope you read them. I always enjoy your insights on films, but with BATMAN BEGINS, you were a "spoiler" by not hiding the identity of the final twist with "The League of Shadows". Luckily, I saw the movie before I read your review. If I read you first, it would spoiled the movie for me. Just a suggestion.
mick
Mick: Yes, the comments are automatically mailed to me. Thanks for the note. I should probably put "spoiler alert" in front of all my reviews, seeing as I tend to assume the reader has already seen the film--which is probably not the best thing to do. At any rate, it's nice to know I have at least one regular reader out there--other than Liz, that is!
Yes, don't mind me, BTW, folks, I am just the insane jester: the pagan among the Christians here, after all!
Sincerely, Liz K.
P.S. Regarding "spoilers" - I am GLAD I read my J K Rowling before I checked out Amazon.com and co.uk's entries on "The Half Blood Prince" - because they were all FULL of spoilers, hundreds of them... and you should know how important plot is with Rowling; she's basically a suspense novelist! And the Amazon editors do NOTHING about it: they don't edit the posts, or put "spoiler" in big red letters... even though their guidelines say you're not really supposed to put spoilers in reviews!
I think HJ is really usually very civilized in this regard, by comparison. Specially with films.
Oh, and P.S.... sorry for turning the Batman Begins blog momentarily into the Harry Potter blog... isn't that just ME all over... my brain's connected up that way, Kevin... everything's mixed up with each other!!
But I can't find the Harry Potter blog on this site; and wherever it is, Kevin doesn't do it. And I wanted to tell HIM!
And you, Sam Ewing... I DO hope you come back and visit this site from time to time... It's great to have such a truly original intellect, researcher and folklorist as yourself - truly!! (Rarely do I FIND someone who gives me BIG surprises in any department: Rowling is ONE who gives me big surprises; Sam Ewing is another!)
Anyway, for your benefit, Sam, as well as Kevin's, I've just found another "archetypal"-cum-linguistic clue to back up what I've said about the very possible significance of one of J K Rowling's characters; the mage Sirius Black.
Have you noticed HOW his first name (Rowling is a DEMON on names!), not only signifies "The Dog Star" (which has its OWN particular significance in Egyptian and also African mythology, my paranormal studies, though broad, have told me that much!!)
Do you NOTICE, Sam, how "Sirius" is ALSO reminiscent of the name "Osiris"... the Egyptian Jesus, he-rises-from-the-grave archetype?!?!?!
ANYONE picked that out?
I haven't seen anyone on Amazon; and I don't know if I want to go to a Harry Potter fansite with it (I've visited some of the art ones.. they are LUSCIOUS! What illustrators, I'd like to give 'em all jobs!)
Because it might spoil it for 'em. My archetypal knowledge, I mean.
Anyway, if no-one's said it, and I happen to be RIGHT... you heard it here first, folks!!
It's my journalistic training. I love to claim scoops.
Hello,
Liz, in regards to the ideology between Superman and Batman there are differences. Superman, for example, merely restrains human criminals, for obvious reasons Superman won't punch out common criminals (this requires an enormous amount of self-control On Superman's part), knocks out superhuman criminals and monsters (or builds bigger restraints for them), and he turns them over to the authorities. Superman is the Super-Boy Scout always ready to help in maintaining the status quo. He is a Bright-Hero in that most of what he does is out in the open, he is optimistic in that he believes that the American people will strive to do the right thing (Batman ridicules this belief); and then there is Truth, Justice, and the American Way. In fact that particular slogan represents Superman's hope and idealism for an ideal America that doesn't yet exist. Superman is an aristocrat and man of the people with rural American values.He is like the kind father or the big brother who looks after the welfare of the family. He sees human beings and himself as a family. Every once in awhile the father or elder brother must step in and discipline members of the family. Superman is always polite and kind to citizens, polite, but firm to the villains. What mother wouldn't want to have a son like Clark Kent/Kalel?
Batman's view is that criminals and citizens must be terrified and horrified into doing the morally correct thing whether they want to or not. His first approach is not necessarily to kill them, but if that happens he doesn't seem to lose a lot of sleep over it. If he happens to maim them from time to time that is the criminal's fault. His bottom line is to stop the criminal and he is on the thin line between vigilante turned anti-criminal terrorist. Batman is still an aristocrat who believes the masses must be controlled in order to keep order. There is a difference between the masses and himself; you won't get warm fuzzies
from Batman. Fear and superstition is the key to humiliating and crushing fiends, therefore Batman will give no quarter to the fiends, and he expects none from them. When he beats up criminals he feels no pity, after all, you have to be pretty stupid or sly like a fox to want to trade punches with Batman. A person would probably be right in concluding that Batman never underestimates criminals, but he views them in the final analysis as being incredibly stupid to think that there genius can out do his. *With Batman there is the challenge and pleasure of proving one's superiority over the common and stupid.
So Liz, there is quite a bit of difference between Batman and Superman.*Frank Miller makes it quite clear, as a matter of fact one could say Miller favors Batman's slogan that "Criminals are a superstitious lot." Miller uses Batman to ridicule Superman's optimism and trust of human beings.
That is why the Batman vs. Superman movie if well written would have probably been one of the greatest movies to come out of Hollywood. It would have taken a real intellect to write that story.
I'm not really interested in the Batman comics where they included a vampire scenario. I view them as inferior teasers that didn't lead to anything at all. Boring. Dracula may be 19th century, but he is the perennial incarnation of Satan. They don't call him the"Prince of Darkness" for nothing. He always comes back. One could make a strong argument that in this century Dracula would actually enjoy destroying criminals for his amusement and for feeding purposes. This would get the attention of Batman immediately. Furthermore Dracula would find Batman intriguing, even arrogant in presuming to take over his authority as the ultimate ambassador of horror.
Sam: I really appreciate you sharing your insights here. Interesting that one of DC's most popular titles right now is Superman and Batman. I guess they've worked together before in the JLA, but it has always involved some comprimise on each character's part, if the writers were being true to each character's ideology, that is. Frank Miller definitely nailed the differences in DK. Boy, I sure would like to see a Superman/Batman movie like you've mentioned. I wouldn't put it beyond hope. Perhaps you should be the one to pitch it to the powers that be.
Sam's back! But I can't say that I agree with much in his last post. He has obviously been drawn into the dubious "glamour" of the writer Frank Miller, who, as I have said TIME and time again, I find TOTALLY unconvincing, and his, Miller's, ideas, naught but obnoxious. I can think of ONE THOUSAND children's book writers who are better and wiser than him or his ideas.
I think that the person who started the "Batman Begins" comments, in the very first post above, had it far better, namely Mr. Brandon Freeman, and I quote a few of his lines: >The scene where Bruce talks about "venturing into the mind of the criminal" exposes a compassion for them. Ra's al Guhl asks him if he still felt absolute resentment for criminals after that. Bruce said, "The first time I stole so I wouldn't starve, I lost many assumptions about the simplicity of right and wrong." As he said that, we see a scene of him giving a stolen fruit (that HE stole to eat) to another young man that's even hungrier.<
So I think that all these oversimplifications about the attitude of the Batman towards criminals, that both you and Frank Miller seem to share, Sam, are wrong... or are simply not shared by everybody.
He IS a very complex character, you know!! Something which the movies "Batman Begins" and "Batman Forever" both illustrate and espouse; which is why I like them.
All these oversimplifications are just made by fascists anyway... they are the ones in the "reductionist" business, so far as I can see - reducto ad absurdum! THEY would never be capable of writing an antihero like Milton's Satan... or a villain like Loki... a VERY complicated character, as the article on Wikipedia admits - first sensible thing I saw them say in ages! Or a double agent character like Rowling's Severus Snape... or the hero malgre lui Sirius Black (what did you think about my "name comparisons" between him and Osiris, BTW, Sam... I've been all over Harry Potter-related blogs and haven't spotted THAT observation yet! Are you INTO Rowling yet? You SHOULD be. ANY serious mythology/literature student should be - you and Kevin both have left it a bit late, to get with the curve!)
But really, Sam, I think you're MUCH too hard on the Batman... Re-reading your post, I don't think that even Frank Miller is as hard on the Batman as YOU have been...
>Batman is still an aristocrat who believes the masses must be controlled in order to keep order.<... Huh - where does any story say THIS?? Or even imply it - where is there a story where he attempts to control "the masses", or says nasty things about them?? You're WRONG, Sam. Particularly in relation to the OLD (Forties) Batman comics (after all, he only began life half-way through 1939!) My blogger friend John at livejournal has been reading some old reprints... and he's already picked out several stories where the Batman, far from disparaging the masses, makes comments about corrupt bosses of chemicals companies and so on - hoping they all come to a bad end! He was on the right track THERE! But then lots of late Thirties/early Forties heroes were!
>There is a difference between the masses and himself; you won't get warm fuzzies
from Batman.< Funny, I got lots as a child... particularly from the TV version, which I know by means of research is FAR truer in many particulars to the "original" ie the 1940s comics, most of them, than are ANY newer versions.
> Fear and superstition is the key to humiliating and crushing fiends, therefore Batman will give no quarter to the fiends, and he expects none from them.< Why doesn't he kill them then... if not first, then second or third time around?
> When he beats up criminals he feels no pity< see remarks above... >after all, you have to be pretty stupid or sly like a fox [like Mr Joker??] to want to trade punches with Batman.< How come so many of them DO, then... so want? How come they have such a HARD-ON for him... as the Riddler is convincingly portrayed as having in the movie "Batman Forever"? (OK, so in that movie he also has the double motive of getting back at Bruce Wayne too.. who he soon discovers is the Batman's secret identity... and he's discovered it in the COMICS too, so I've read...so these villains are certainly crazy, but not Stupid! Bless'em forever!)
As for "superiority over the common and stupid"... well, Sam, maybe he DID think a bit like that, as a young man in particular... maybe he WAS a bit stuck-up... but THAT was before he MET the Joker, Penguin, Riddler et al.. and was forced to realise... Ah, the lumpen criminal class have THEIR hyper-talented, as well!!
I don't think he thinks they are "stupid". I think he just feels sorry for them... and their predicament.
>So Liz, there is quite a bit of difference between Batman and Superman.*Frank Miller [and you believe THAT fascist misogynist "anti-intellectual" (as David Walsh labels him!)?] makes it quite clear, as a matter of fact one could say Miller favors Batman's slogan that "Criminals are a superstitious lot."< Yeah, but when I see him SAYING that, Sam, in the first comics, I also have the panel image of him in my mind, sitting in his study, musing, hand to chin, not a vicious image at all, but a contemplative one... "Now HOW can I fight these people without any special powers, other than my all-too-human strength and intellect? I know... I'll use psychology! All I need is something to unsettle them, put them on the wrong foot, and then I can gain the upper hand!" I think of him as trying to work out how to do it... intellectually speaking! Well. Some species of bats are also known as "flying foxes"... so who says the Batman is not CUNNING... in that respect, HE is a bit of a trickster, isn't he? But he doesn't use these techniques any more than he has to to survive.
>Miller uses Batman to ridicule Superman's optimism and trust of human beings.< That is a HORRIBLE remark, Sam: I don't think that Miller even SPELLS IT OUT like that, though you're probably right in divining that that's the drift of his... "literary argument", if one can thus dignify it.
Aren't we REALLY saying, though, that "Miller uses his OWN interpretations of Batman and Superman, which he pulled out of his jacksy most likely, to ridicule ALL human beings and any of their better impulses, because Miller is an irredeemable misanthrope?"
>That is why the Batman vs. Superman movie if well written would have probably been one of the greatest movies to come out of Hollywood. It would have taken a real intellect to write that story.< Well, if you think so, Sam... It would at least be better than "The Dork Nite Reruns"... we're talking about a live-action Batman vs. Superman I presume? (Yeah but wouldn't the studios just turn it into "Freddy vs. Jason" - ha ha?) But Kevin's right - if the studios'll wear it, you're probably the man to write it. You have all these ideas and fantasies about "exceptional" people anyway... I worry about you sometimes Sam... you say you are against fascism and that Doc Savage might be that way... but as I have pointed out, NOTHING could be more fascist - other than Nazi Germany - than today's U.S.A.!! And has either of you checked out those sites on fascist boot camps I mentioned... killing the soul of America's kids?
AS for this idea of Batman being horrific... you know what? He MIGHT be, in a sense - but it only works on villains who don't know him very well... ie those who encounter him for the first time! Ie, the Joker, when he saw him first... yes, despite this man's eternal sophistication, I can imagine him giving quite a start... maybe even losing his footing because of it... Batman represents the unexpected, you see... the Sod's Law for all criminals...
But... when the criminals KNOW (and love) him, the "fear factor" can NEVER work in the Batman's favour again, not like it did the first time... has nobody with any intelligence ever bothered to WORK THIS OUT??
Why aren't they scared of him?? Precisely because they know he won't DO anything to them! What - beat them up? Yes, maybe, but only a BIT - nothing LIKE the kicking/nightstick beating they would get from a bunch of aggravated cops!! I know who I'd rather get caught by!
He doesn't carry a GUN; he hasn't got a laser... he refuses to knock them dead with his fists - so what can he DO to them? What have they to fear from him? Nothing. Save humiliation, and curtailment of their freedom. (Which they would get from the cops anyway... and, don't let's fool ourselves; in the absence of the Batman, the cops would catch up with the costumed freaks sooner or later; in fact, the earliest "villain comics" in the series implied that they had... I'll explain sometime if asked.)
Oh, and he doesn't drive a tank, and he doesn't shoot a gun, with or without rubber bullets... THESE were Frank Miller fabrications; as was the idea of torturing henchmen/smaller criminals (by sticking glass in them)... all Miller's fascist ideas, and you can see he supports Abu Ghraib and is behind "our boys" in Gitmo and Iraq every step. I kid you not and I am not being unfair.
Anyway, Two-Face, the Joker, the Riddler et al are NO MORE "terrified" of the Batman (in a "mortal" sense) than they would be of a stern father or of their old headmaster. Neither is the Catwoman. I mean... there's a bit of healthy awe and "apprehension" (and sexual thrill, Messrs Joker and Riddler in particular) going on there... as there is with anyone who you fear is going to punish you - why I have it sometimes with Kevin! But not "horror". So there. I speak common sense.
How are you going to be "terrified" of a guy who you know isn't going to kill you - or maim you? Again, anything which contradicts that statement is a Miller untruth.
So - really - what all the comics and movies tacitly admit, is that Batman's "terrifying" reputation would be at its strongest and most useful when he is NEW in Gotham City, and still an unknown quantity. After that, it would just wear off, when he was no longer a novelty; when he got a reputation for NOT killing, and he would have to rely on other things, like just his detective skills. OH - and the fact that most of the (male, for they are mostly male) villains actually LOVE him. Or respect his intellect; or whatever. Batman gets a lot further through goodwill (yes, on the part of the villains!) and the strength of relationships than he does anything else. This is one of the unstated, tacit truths of the stories. Naturally, again in this era of "Abu Ghraib" etc, it is NOT one they are going to publicize!! Nope, nope!
(But I mean, if he wasn't somehow ADORABLE... (even Frank Miller's Joker seems to be in love with him, interestingly!) why wouldn't they just kill him first chance? And if they didn't SECRETLY hope he was going to help them, ie, be a hero to them, a Doc Savage, a whatever, some kind of benefactor... why, again, wouldn't they condemn him as a fascist and kill him? For being against the working class - which includes the "lumpen" in Marxist terms, the criminal classes? But you SEE Sam, I DON'T THINK HE IS... otherwise they would spot it! And they'd have him!)
As for the powers that be Kevin... yes, while they are still THERE, one can pitch what one wishes to them... who is responsible for making the "final decisions", however, I have no idea...
But the thing we REALLY want to do with those (unelected) powers... is to PLOT THEIR DESTRUCTION... That's what would satisfy me. That is why Kevin will unhesitatingly put me in the Joker bracket, as I have ALWAYS told him he should.
Sorry, BTW, Kevin, but I NEEDED this much space to rebut Sam's arguments... so I split it into two. He says some OUTRAGEOUS things. Couldn't let him get away with that. Stick to mysticism, Sam! (Though yes, I did ask you about your opinions about differences between DC's two greatest superheroes... I didn't think there WERE any, you see... not originally... I thought ALL superheroes (U.S.) believed in "Truth, Justice and the American Way"! (Ie, the separation of Church and State for one thing, which is what the current pressure group "People for the American Way" tries to protect!)
I think all ideas to the contrary are just newfangled nonsense made up by post-Seventies cultural apologists for the Right. TRULY I do.
PS. I think Superman is WRONG and naive to trust "the authorities" - they are all evil, especially these days, and especially in America. George Bush, who would want to trust him?? Especially a "man of the people"? If his adoptive folks were farmers, the FACT of the matter is that they would have long since put him off Bush!! Which is one of the myriad unrealistic things about modern DC efforts...
...the fact that hardly any superheroes would find themselves in AGREEMENT with the U.S. government any more, is what!! Why - because the "powers" are crooked (the Bush whitecollar crime family) and not trustworthy! Even fringe Right-wingers, with the exception of who Sam on another post rightly calls "Public Religionists", namely naive/fundagelical Christians, don't like him!!
So I think Miller was "right" to tease Superman (fans) about this.
But Miller's no better; because he's fundamentally just as right-wing, as his remarks post 9/11 prove.
Hello,
Liz, you are entitled to your opinions concerning my estimation of Frank Miller's Batman, however, unlike you I don't have a strong investment in trying to promote my own personal paradigm of the Batman or take out aspects of the Batman that I prefer or from various periods of time that I know of.
You asked my opinion of Frank Miller's Batman, then you strongly suggest that I favor Miller's view of the Batman, and you appear to be quite upset. *Any one of us is going to have a different opinion and if that upsets you; you might try a different blog where people tend to agree with you. I'm not wired that way.
As far as I.m concerned I don't have a big emotional investment in Frank Miller's take on Batman. However, there is no doubt that Batman has strong aristocratic tendencies(the doctrine of the rule of the best), in any given time, era, or situation his actions can interpreted as fascist. You don't need Frank Miller as a straw man to make a point one way or another. In fact if you've read the book, The American Monomyth: The Superhero (this title may not be entirely correct, but the book is easy to obtain). The two authors of this book point to the fact that American Superheroes tend to be fascist, outlaws, extreme vigilantes, with aristocratic tendencies. *I might add here without being redundant that on Maurice's blog I talked about how many of these superheroes are aristocrats, nobility, and bourgeois. Is this really surpirising. The rest of these supermen in American comics tend to be of the intellectual/innovator elite types who are either successful, working middle class, or nouveau rich like Tony Stark (Iron Man).
These Supermen are take charge people, go-getters, can do type of people. It may upset some people who have a more leftist/folkish paradigm that there don't seem to be any Supermen who are of the folk, who are poor economically, and mentally not very keen. ***Well, the reality is that a Superman coming from the poor folk is a go-getter, is stronger and /or more intelligent than his/her peers and is doing everything they can to get out of the folk environment. Can anyone blame them. Supermen are the exact opposite of the folkish way; they don't belong among the mere masses that's why they are Supermen. They would tend to have a more aristocratic, intellectual, and dynamic outlook. Why should they think and act like insects because the masses (folk) tend to do so? And from the standpoint of the middle class and poor class folk one expects them to be fearful, envious, jealous, and awed of people that display such overwhelming excellence. ***To be frank,many people are entertained by the notion of Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. but most people would not want them living in their neigbhorhood. These Supermen would be a reminder of their own lack of initiative, intelligence, strength, courage etc.
*** Now, to answer the real question that you have in the back of your mind about what my perspective is. I think that your question to me concerning Frank Miller also concerns what my perspective is; I'll tell you. My experience is that as an African American I've had to deal with the folkish masses in my ethnic group who hate achievement, they won't stop at mere ridicule and harassment. They will use violence to stop an African American from achieving some form of excellence. Then there is the white folkish who are afraid and shocked by an African American who is stronger, more intelligent, and more goal oriented than they are. They respond by verbal harassment and trying to fire the aspiring black from their job with false allegations; even to trying to ruin the black person's future prospects in finding another job. Finally, you have the equally shocked white intelligentsia who are the gate-keepers making sure that any minority who gets this far will be stopped at a certain point. My point is having experienced a life time of this type of behavior from the Folk, I don't particularly care about their values. Their values are quite low. I'm interested in the best not the worst. I think that I should be able to strive and work to be be the best that I can be and to be authentic. I think that when I achieve various types of personal excellence, I should enjoy it, not be ostracized for it, take credit for it, and jealous, mean-spirited Folk can stay right where they choose to be. Let the Folk be the Folk. Let the Supermen be Supermen. I think those persons who strive for excellence should be given every opportunity for success and they should have a greater say in the direction that their ethnic group takes. It is apparent to me that the present American elite uses the Folk to keep the Folk stupid and stamp out seekers of excellence. After all, if more Cultural-Supermen started to rise, the present order would lose power. Wouldn't it?
Therefore, I favor the Superman, a Cultural Superman who acts as a mentor for others who seek excellence and raises the consciousness of the a people. That is my idea of a superhero. This is Samuel Ewing's Way. I don't think that makes me a fascist, but I will settle for Neoaristocratic Radical or one of DuBois' Talented Tenth.
Hello,
*Liz, by the way, if you have read what I've posted lately on Maurice's blog that would give you more details on my view of Frank Miller's Batman. These posts were written prior to the one you responded so strongly to. I think as a person living in American Culture there are certain nuances about that culture I'm very aware of. I would not presume to say I understand British nuances even though I lived for a time among the British. Therefore, my take on Frank Miller includes these nuances as they are seen from an American perspective.
You need to pay better attention to what I have said and not let your emotional bias against Frank Miller and for Socialism cloud what I have said.
***Not once have I responded to your comments about me in a manner which you could interpret as a personal, verbal attack. I therefore appreciate and expect a certain modicum of respect. I've noticed that your manner at times can be sarcastic, condescending, and patronizing. Also, a person like myself can not and will not be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of words that you use to overwhelm people with different views. I'm more interested in the quality not the quantity of words or discussion.
I'm sure that anyone from the West can with patience understand, if not agree, with the viewpoints of others from another part of Western Civilization; such as it is. I won't apologize for wanting to be the best I can be and wanting to be with people who want the same. *And by the way I'm not a follower of President Bush, the Republican Party, or the Democratic Party. I won't apologize for that either. Don't presume to put me in categories that you have in mind. As an Individual I'm in command of how I define myself as it should be.
Also, I speak from the perspective of the ethnic group I belong to and this is in addition to be an "American." Perhaps there is more for you to learn then you will admit. I hope I have clarified my-self and my-views sufficiently. I expect respect when discussing anything here because I understand that it is a privilege to have the right to do so. And now that you understand for your own edification. I'll say "Thank You. You've been most cooperative."
Sincerely,
Sam
Oh, Sam - I'M not upset - I'm too OLD (well I sometimes feel that way) and CYNICAL to ever be very upset, I know all the errors and traps that people are capable of falling for, and let's just say that I "call them when I see them" - that is, to say, the ways in which I think people stray off what I perceive to be the straight and narrow!
I know you're not a "Socialist", Sam. I thought you were a bit too intelligent than just to support Frank Miller uncritically, though. (Because he's not a very intelligent man, and certainly no "Superman", which you seem to wish to promote. Miller is more the moral pygmy type.)
>Liz, you are entitled to your opinions concerning my estimation of Frank Miller's Batman, however, unlike you I don't have a strong investment in trying to promote my own personal paradigm of the Batman< - oh no? Ha ha ha ha! (Oh and by the way Sam, you've never SAID which of the versions of the Batman you held most dear... I was just trying to clarify! Well I seem to have achieved that!)
I think you're the one who's "upset" - and intolerant - Sam. I didn't say that I think people shouldn't have different opinions! I just shoot down the ones I think are crap/poorly argued and without justification: yes, that IS what socialists do; we're all argumentative, to a man and woman.
Instead of referring to any of my points - and BTW, it was NECESSARY for me to write a couple of long posts, especially my first repartee to yours, because I wanted to cite points from your argument and rebut or question a few of them point by point, which I achieved.
But INSTEAD of referring to any of my points above, you just refer me to some book above which I've never heard of, called "The American Monomyth"...(Is it by Robert Jewett and John Shelton Lawrence? That's the only reference I can find to it on Amazon; it's from 1988, is out of print and has no reviews.) I hope you've got the title right as I might just check this one out! It sounds like it's been written by a couple of fascists, though, anyway. Now let me tell you something and let you get this clear: IF you were to have gone among the Roosevelt-era creators of most comic strips, AT THAT TIME, and accused them of being pro-fascist writers, they would have been horrified. I think there's one book YOU should read, which gives a very accurate though fictional picture of some of the VERY "FOLKISH" people responsible for creating the medium itself - you should like it, it won a Pulitzer prize - namely, "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay," by Michael Chabon. And it's not out of print.
Never mind "the real question in the back of my mind..." I'm not sure I care very much what people's "perspective" is, any more. Let them just deal with my arguments blow-by-blow, and I'll retire with the sense of having gotten a decent argument out of them.
No no - YOU just answer some of my points first!
Eg - IF Batman is such a "terror" and a fascist to people - well - HOW does this express itself in most of the stories?? I mean, for ONE thing (and this notion has never been explicitly discussed in the stories, so I AM asking all readers of this blog to use their brains!)... how could the Batman CONTINUE to be "terrifying" to the criminals of Gotham on an ongoing basis... when they soon find out by experience, that he doesn't kill his adversaries (though a few die by accident) and he don't tote no gun??
If something's NOT going to KILL you - how are you going to be that afraid of it? Unless, Sam, you are suggesting that the Batman's borrowed some of Crane's fear potion!
So, here I am arguing, that after the criminals get over the shock of this terribly aristocratic superhero terrorizing them... they're not so scared any more, because they know he operates by a code, and I would imagine that terror is soon replaced by other emotions - respect, fascination, obsession with him?? (Even that idiot Frank Miller suggests the latter, in the case of the Joker - Miller "calls" some things right! Oh, and I'm certainly not using him as "a straw man" - do you even know what a straw man is, Sam? Just wondering - if you have ever been trained in debate! Anyway, "illustration" does not equal "straw man".)
And WELL, Samuel, obviously not EVERYBODY - not every Batman writer for a start - agrees with your (and Frank Miller's) harsh assessment of this character! In fact, I'd say you were in the minority! What about my citing Brandon Freeman's post above? What about the points he made about Batman's sympathetic understanding of criminals that he arrived at during his travels in the movie "Batman Begins" - aren't those worth discussing?
As for your... perspective, Sam. Yes, well, hmm. I thought you might be a bit along the lines of the Nietzschean - however, lots of people have respect for him, from various ideological viewpoints, so that's OK, I suppose. But I had no idea you were so extreme!
>Supermen are the exact opposite of the folkish way; they don't belong among the mere masses that's why they are Supermen. They would tend to have a more aristocratic, intellectual, and dynamic outlook. Why should they think and act like insects because the masses (folk) tend to do so?<
This is dreadful, Sam, truly dreadful. Not only do you display your contempt for the working classes; the very language it is couched in displays a hatred of humanity - a misanthropy - which I and others have been arguing for a long time that right-wingers suffer from.
Like I said - I call it like I see it! If I see something to praise, I praise it, if it's the other way, I knock it.
>My experience is that as an African American I've had to deal with the folkish masses in my ethnic group who hate achievement, they won't stop at mere ridicule and harassment.< So you're not only dismissing ordinary folks in general, but ordinary BLACK folks? Hmm, I don't think any of your ethnic heroes, NAMELY DuBois, Booker T, etc, would like that idea!
Well actually, I do know something of what you're talking about. I was bullied at school, so I DO know about people around you trying to "drag you down" and being jealous of your achievements... (And interestingly enough, this - rejection by their peers - is a major theme relating to the motivation of many of the villains in the Batman comics; it always was, which is why I find them so interesting!)
For me, it was my intelligence and my singing voice that were found to be excellent, and so were mocked.
But actually, I think that this "dragging down" philosophy is one that is encouraged by the ruling class - ie, the working class attacking each other... the ruling class, or the less enlightened section of them, foment these discords all the time: you can see it in American society where they are pushing race issues all the time at the expense of class issues, and in the prisons their minions actively promote race war - to stop the prisoners rebelling! "The powers that be" as Kevin likes to call them, HATE it, for instance, when in the prisons there are instances of ALL THE RACES COMING TOGETHER..
And in British state education, I would say that such "lowest common denominator", disempowering attitudes, are pushed by patronizing teachers, on the one hand, who say things like "oh, you can't do that - you shouldn't be capable of doing that"... (I've had it myself, medear!) all bureaucrats do it, they'd rather see people as a string of sausages rather than individuals. And partly it is because of our system of secondary education laughingly known as "comprehensive" - anything but, I'd say! But it has to be remembered that NONE of these systems were designed for the EMPOWERMENT of the masses; they were just designed to process them and keep them down... hence, some teachers don't want to teach Shakespeare in the schools, and I'm sure that applies in the U.S. too. Well, in YOUR country, schools can't even afford books, never mind libraries but proper up-to-date textbooks, because state education in America is being systematically starved of funds. (By that same ruling class and no other. THEY'D rather have their fat tax cuts - the robber barons!)
So with THAT sort of thing going on... how can you BLAME the "black folkish masses who hate achievement", as you seem determined to label them?
No I don't see why I should let you get away with such an attitude!
Sincerely,
Liz!
If anyone's sarcastic, BTW Sam, it's YOU. That sarcastic signoff - "for your own edification" - "thank you, you've been co-operative"... indeed. Hmm. What you interpret as "sarcasm" on my part, Sam, might be instead, evidence of MY having a lively sense of humour and of scepticism... and you having very little of either! Yes this MAY be down to a cultural difference... you know, they say about Brits having a sharp sense of humour? Obviously "respect" is a bigger thing, among the American black community, than is sceptical humour... but correct me if I'm wrong, don't you also have this tradition known as "trash-talking", which has also been picked up by American whites? Still, that would be rather a "folkish" tradition... as is rap, hip-hop and practically anything of note to come out of the black community in recent years...
"I'm more interested in the quality not the quantity of words or discussion." - what a joke - considering the length of SOME of your own posts! Anyway, I think what you're not interested in is responding to a string of good points... goodness knows how you'd fare if you were ever crossexamined in court!
Well, in Britain I don't see people being given "respect" automatically - certainly not for their views. They have to earn it, through argument.
No, I haven't read lately what you've posted on Maurice's blog, Sam. I have BEEN to Maurice's blog, yesterday: I have not been all over it, though I visited a few different pages. It would be most helpful if you'd give the title of the review page where you posted your Frank Miller comments, though I daresay I'll find them sooner or later.
So, to be clear: anything I have said to Sam on this page has been based on his remarks ON THIS REVIEW PAGE. Nothing else. I haven't yet seen any praise from you of Frank Miller that would act like a red rag to a bull! (So I wasn't actually responding to Sam's evaluation of Frank Miller as I have yet to read it! Oh, apart from the remark concerning the differences between (Miller's) Batman and Superman, several posts above.)
I just DON'T like Frank Miller (and I harbour similar, though less passionate, dislikes for a string of OTHER Transatlantic comics writers from the "new school" - interestingly, most of their surnames begin with M! ) and I don't care who knows it! Least I have a POSITION on some things; I'm not all wish-wash.
I never said that you were a follower of Bush or the Republicans, Democrats or any party... my experience on these blogs seems to be that most "liberal" (ie non-fundie) Christians (And I know you're not one of those either!) don't seem to coincide with either of the major U.S. parties... could this be because both now have so little to offer people who are not involved with Big Business?
It's you who's setting up the straw men here, Sam, by saying that I said things about you that I didn't say!
>I think as a person living in American Culture there are certain nuances about that culture I'm very aware of. I would not presume to say I understand British nuances even though I lived for a time among the British. Therefore, my take on Frank Miller includes these nuances as they are seen from an American perspective.< So... are we saying that only Americans can understand Frank Miller, because of "cultural nuances"?! Come off it, we all understand political concepts such as fascism, socialism (though actually most Americans and quite a few Britons have a very hazy concept of the latter... they equate it with things like the former Soviet union... not really... I must endeavour to define it properly for you and Maurice some time!)
Yeah, we all understand what comics and movies are going on about, when they advance certain social ideas. (Would you say, for example, that a British Black would not understand American racism?)
Anyway, I'm an Internationalist, by definition, as a confirmed Red... So all these insinuations that "you're a Brit so you don't really understand America" cut no ice with me! (I've only been reading all your internet publications for the past five years... and this includes the right wing blogs!)
Anyway, both my parents were from Europe... so perhaps that gives my "own personal paradigm of Batman" a European flavour - hey, maybe it's the Euro-Batman! Don't worry though, neither of them were from France. (Joke.)
>You need to pay better attention to what I have said and not let your emotional bias against Frank Miller and for Socialism cloud what I have said.< The previous DEFINES my attitude, Sam, it doesn't cloud it! And don't forget: "emotional AND intellectual"....
I'm against Frank Miller (a noted right winger and latent fascist misanthrope) and I'm pro Socialism. (And the human race!) Yes! That's me!
Always willing to learn,
Sam... but bored by right-wing ideas. Because they have all been discredited!
Oh, and at the risk of annoying the "proprietor" of this blog... still, I think we might owe him an explanation! Well, sorry we seem to have turned your blog into a "flamewar", Kevin! But at the risk of so doing - how can I let someone who expresses outrageous social views get away unchallenged?
Though I was always rather more attracted to Sam's mind than not, largely because of his obvious wide-ranging intelligence, and ability to pull in all sorts of original ideas from all over!! He's obviously widely read. But that doesn't necessarily equal politically enlightened! He has too much of an individualist take on things, when the truth is that all life and certainly all human beings are connected. Sam spends too much of his time hating the "inferior", obviously... when it's at the ones above running the show that the lasers of our minds REALLY need to be aimed at!
Anyway, Kevin... on several posts and blogs all around HJ, I offered him my e-mail address, yes I did... and offered him the opportunity to start up a discussion via e-mail, but he doesn't seem to have taken up the opportunity, nor does he give a webpage I can go and visit and carry on my personal ideological battle of wits with him there!
Pity, no??
Hello,
Liz, you made the comment concerning, ".... which of the versions of the Batman you held dear..." The fact is I don't have any particular version that I care about one way or another. Furthermore, you asked for my opinion on Frank Miller's version, I also referred you to what I recently discussed with *Maurice. You haven't read it, but the opportunity is there, you are aware of it. So, if you who calls your comments an "argument" instead of a discussion do not choose to read it; that finally speaks for itself.
Again when you make reference to my suggestion that you read the book "The American Monomyth" you say,"I hope you got the title right as I might read this one out! It sounds like its been written by a couple of fascists, though anyway." ***This is clearly an example of the same attitude you've displayed consistently. The book was written by two men who are anti-fascist, anti-collective,
and anti-American Fascism like myself. And yes, you did refer to me as a fascist/and or having strong fascist sympathies. It is you who are incorrect about me and the book. But your words are consistent with your attitude.
Again, in reference to Batman you ask the rhetorical question, "If somethings Not going to kill you how are you going to be that afraid of it?" I can say from experience that criminals and sociopaths fear being exposed (illumination); as do politicians, and any person involved in hurting others. They are afraid because the consequences could mean imprisonment or their actual demise. An obvious example of being afraid of something that won't kill you. Whether its Batman, Superman, or anonymous. I don't think the Batman limits himself to one type of behavior or approach. Batman may use illumination or in Miller's version he would use violence.
Neither am I a follower of a Nietzsche and neither will I be portrayed as a fascist. First of all I've pointed out quite well that the Superman idea is not an original idea from Nietzsche, you know that I've talked about this already, and the concept has many constructive conceptions prior to fascism. So your implication of associating me with Nietzsche from a fascist perspective is a red herring. It is dishonest, unfair, and misleading. As a red herring it is not a very good one.
Fascism, like all collectivist doctrines Italian Fascism, Nazism, Spanish Franco's version, Stalinist Communism, Racism, Misogynism, Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, nationality etc. etc. basically sacrifices the individual to the state. I obviously don't meet the category of a fascist. I don't like, believe, or think about any form of collectivism.
I speak from a first hand account when I say that American Popular Culture and Civic Religion is damaging to American individuals. It is particularly damaging to the African American Community. The very things you don't like about America are the very things that American Pop Culture and American Civic Religion promote. How about that?It has been used to promote the worst types of behavior and feelings, non-thinking, and there are many African American casualties for this mind-numbing poison. I know, I've participated in trying to help these people in hospitals as a medical professional and now I'm gradually setting up the ground work culturally.
I'm simply not going to stand by as these two types of poison are used to destroy my community.Therefore a counterculture of excellence is called for. I'm from the DuBois school of thought, but my ideas are still different. DuBois is an elitist, so am I, I'm in good company since like him, I'm anti-collectivist and anti-fascist.
*And yes, you did imply that I was a fascist in your expression of your rather strong dislike of Bush and Frank Miller. I can read. Your denial of this is equally dishonest.
I am pro-individual, pro-art, pro- excellence, pro-literacy, pro-intellectual, pro-physical culture, pro-health, pro-achievement,pro-heroism, pro-culture, pro-beauty, pro-authentic, pro-womanist, pro-honor, and of course, pro-the Superman. All the things that collectivists like the elite American Republicans and Democrats hate. No apologies here. I'm going to bring these values which were historical expressions of the African American Uplift and Elevation Movements back to the forefront in that community. Again, I'm in good company following in the footsteps of the best of my ethnic group's ancestors. That is my life's goal. No apologies here.
I don't know any intelligent person who would despise such a life goal and I have been encouraged by people like myself who want to manifest it.
When I think of the current imagery of the American Superhero, which is predominantly Eurocentric; I'm drawing on the actual historical Supermen in African American culture who have made a difference for the better. This idea I have conveyed to black children to counter the crap created by the hacks that manufacture Popular Culture. I've had some degree of success. This is most encouraging.
I think any thoughtful person is able to conclude that fascist may be elitist, but not all elitists are fascist.
Now, I'm sure you understand me quite well. Obviously, Frank Miller isn't big in my concerns. The Superman motif has obviously been distorted by the Popular Culture. Obviously, there is a need to inform people of the positive and original aspects of the Superman. I have been doing this since 1996.I'm working to bring it back into its original positive paradigm for black youth. In that way a generation of the best and brightest in that community can mentor this community to its most positive potential.
Sincerely,
Sam
P.S. I'm promoting a Cultural-Superman in opposition to the Batman/ other Superheroes. This Superman is an actual agent in history.
Hello,
By the way Liz, "Yes, as I stated above concerning my helping my ethnic group evolve from being a collective into a community and new culture; these are the things I do feel strongly about."
Sam
I said I was just GOING to read what you posted on Maurice's blog, Sam... Just because I didn't get to it at the same time as I noticed your comments on various of Kevin's blogs! Hold your horses will you!
Anyway, I've read what you put on Maurice's "Batman Begins" blog now, Sam... and I must say, I agree with parts of it. I love your passion! I've put a compliment on there now if you care to look - though full comments must wait till later.
Now I've got to go back and fully read all the above... which is a lot... we've got you going full throttle!
Sam:
Your "Monomyth" book by Jewett and Lawrence (no, it is definitely NOT easy to obtain... it's obviously been out of print for years, as I've said, it's nowhere to be found on amazon.co.uk, and a total of THREE second-hand copies are currently on sale on the great amazon.com... It might be easily obtainable in U.S. public or university libraries, but I don't have that luxury!)
Anyway, your book by Jowett and Lawrence. Are you telling me that they maintain (from some sort of socially critical viewpoint, or one critical of pop culture) that the Batman - AND other superheroes - ARE fascists?? (Well, actually, I'm not surprised, if they were reading DC's output in 1987 and 1988! But I've already made the case to Kevin - and he has BELIEVED me - that this was NOT ever the case - that American pop culture, the modern variety, has in fact BETRAYED its working class and often much more left-wing and/or egalitarian roots...)
Try and use some sense in your arguments for a change and not just rhetoric. Yes this means you! WHAT historical sense would there have been, in WORKING-CLASS pulpsters working in or just after the Great Depression... when right-wing ideas "rightly" had LITTLE appeal to the American majority... what sense would there have been in THESE people, in Bob Kane and Bill Finger, and working-class Jews such as Siegel and Shuster... in espousing FASCISM, or a fascist vision for popular culture, or one designed to influence the populace or the youth that way??
What would have been in it for them? In that time and place? Answer - nothing. Ergo: this myth of "America always had a fascist popular culture" HAS to be wrong. YES, it has always had a WHITE-ORIENTED popular culture... but little could be done about that, really, for a long time... just as it always had a MALE-ORIENTED popular culture, until the inroads of feminism starting in the Forties and Fifties. Yes, ETHNICALLY, because of the U.S. historical dependence on slavery, it was always behind the progressive curve in THAT respect, the ethnic respect of social progress, I will grant you... Well, even Jewish actors had to give themselves Anglo names, and Jewish pulpsters like S and S had to make out that their characters were white, didn't they... But I still think that the "Jewishness" of Superman comes through... I won't be the first to maintain that he is the most CUNNING of all superheroes, because he disguises himself, (from his TRUE identity, of stranger from another place) totally without a mask, in BOTH identities, simply by blending in!! Good example of the "assimilated Jew", as it used to be called.
Whereas in all other respects but that of race - I think that America in the first half or so of the 20th century was the most positive nation going! The race issue has thus far been the biggest bullet it's had to bite - THIS side of revolution.
And now we are in an age of retrogression.
Mmm... "fascist" is a very emotive TERM, Sam... And there are many types and GRADATIONS of right-of-centre thought... of course I'm not going to call all of them fascists! And no, I would have had no way of determining whether you WERE one or not - nothing to base my supposed "accusation" on... you are just being over-sensitive, Sam. Because it's only very recently that you have come out to HJ bloggers with your detailed opinions on politics - and religion. So how could I accuse you of being fascist without any data? The "Nietzschean" sympathies I think were OBVIOUS... and that doesn't necessarily denote "fascist", as I have already said... However, DESPITE all your talk of "Supermen", you now say you don't acknowledge any debt to Nietzsche! I see, I see! Bit UNFAIR, I think... Of course, you're arguing that culture and non-Western culture pre-Nietzsche has a lot of references to the Superman. Yes, very interesting. But Nietzsche was the first one to really popularize it (Yes, with GBS!) in the West; you have to give him credit for that. (How about Theosophy - I've been recommended to that, recently! Any "supermen" in that??)
I imagine, Sam, that you don't like Nietzsche primarily because he was white - and also because of the inevitable Nazi connections, although all will admit that they came well after his time.
Whereas if he was BLACK - or maybe Indian - you would go crazy all over him, no??
Yes, well, this too is a form of racism.
"A black fascist"? Like "Jewish fascist", it sounds like an oxymoron, but there ARE precedents. I suppose Louis Farrakhan would be one. And, NO, I'm not saying that you're like him or necessarily support him or his aims - I don't know, do I?
However, I WOULD make the observation that in general, people who tend to have an obsession with ONE particular ethnic group - USUALLY their own, it is unsurpising to note - are generally those with ideas/an outlook which can only fall into the more right-wing area of the political spectrum... like with all that you've been saying to us, I would surmise that you are definitely a high achiever, and obviously in favour of high achievement: and that your belief in "excellence" as it is termed, would put you rather more on the "libertarian conservative" side of the parliament!!
I don't think you'd be ALL that out of place, among certain sections of the British Conservative Party!
Yes, you DO have an "aristocratic" attitude, Sam... and it's a rather arrogant one, too! (However, Kevin, if you're reading - didn't I recently say elsewhere that I loved arrogant people who weren't politicians or rulers... well looks like I'm getting it now!)
Yeah. You obviously DO have a fear of all those lower than you in the social station... this IS a typical conservative attitude. You see them always as trying to get you - YOU, in particular - and you resent them for their attempts to get even with the "status quo"... like your remarks about Batman, for instance, tell me that you hate and fear all criminals. You never see any of them as "justified" - or at least, that they couldn't be anything else, with the chances in life they were given - am I not right? You discount social/sociological explanations of crime, hey?
Well, that's where you and me differ, again. Yes, I like the little bastards, so help me. Some of them, at least. And whenever I read a criminal's autobiography, as I quite often do with English bank robbers etc... I reflect on the pretty hopeless social backgrounds most of them came from... London Cockney or London Irish, from some of the most deprived estates and slums in the capital... people whose parents had too many children (for their income) and couldn't look after them all. So - why don't ALL deprived children become bank robbers? Well, I would maintain that the bank robbers I've read about were among the most talented and the bravest of their social group; THAT is why they became bank robbers. Because they were too bright to labour on building sites. I believe that most criminals, certainly the ones who write books, have VERY high IQs... and are a sort of "folk" version of your vaunted Supermen. So THERE.
On your other beliefs: my honest opinion is that this dogged fixation with race (even if it's your own race and it has historically been oppressed and still is oppressed) at the expense of LARGER political considerations... is basically a mistake, and will not lead to overall social progress. And I'll say that to Maurice too, if the matter ever comes up!
An analogy with regard to myself is, if I were to be a FEMINIST at the expense of everything ELSE, a rabid feminist who subordinated everything to feminism, and wouldn't consider anything else, or the picture outside of feminism.
Well, I am a raging feminist (but not a rabid one!), I DO believe in the Goddess (who I'd far rather worship than Karl Marx - bit of clarification of my own position statement here!)...
But STILL I have this ability to see the big picture, in social terms. Which ability I do cherish.
As for all your disparagement of "folkishness"... ha ha ha.... I'm a folk singer! (With a touch of opera.) Not professional or semi, yet, because I need a collaborating instrumentalist or two; but I'd like to be!
Oh, and PS: The only reason I call Miller a "fascist", is because I have proof... going by what he writes in his stories... not all of them Batman by all means... I think that the "Sin City" series is FAR more telling! And because of what he says in interviews. And because of what a few other lefties whose opinions I trust have to say about him - not complimentary I assure you!!
Anyway, a man that fixated on swastikas, Iron Crosses, butch prostitutes and pervy sex.... HAS to be something wrong with that kook! He's a KOOK, Sam, through and through! He professes to admire Ayn Rand - yet uses the name of her best-known fictional hero, for one of his most vile VILLAINS! What kind of a putz would do that?
Kevin? (No I didn't mean YOU would!)
Ah, I see that the above post actually came out... last time I looked it wasn't on the blog! Well anyway. I hope it didn't go astray too far, but it expressed some of what I say. The trouble with Sam is that he is much too stimulating - and also drags the conversation in different directions!
ANOTHER trouble with Sam, is that he likes to whine a bit (at his age! I'm sure you're past forty, ie a bit older than myself!) and he has that teeny tiny bit of a chip on the shoulder...
Don't whine, Sam! And don't accuse people of calling you "fascist" in previous posts when they did NOT... (you can read - what did you read, then? To that effect?) All I said was that I was "worried" about you, because you expressed a series of what seemed like contradictory views... I have had enough of people whose thoughts, if they can be called that, like Frank Miller's, tend to cancel themselves out. I just wanted to clarify!
But anyway, you're cleverer than F. M. anyday... but you do seem to have a bit of a monomania, which has very little to do with what most people on THIS site are REALLY interested in, which is, namely, spiritual matters related to film, comics, literary stuff, mythology... You STARTED "real good"... and now you seem to be fixated on telling us how strongly you favour your ethnic group, and how strongly you feel about helping your ethnic group.... well, this is all very WELL, Sam, and I wish you luck therein... but if I were going to adopt that approach in my contributions, I would go on at EVERY opportunity here how I felt about promoting socialism, would relate everything to that, would go on and on about it... and I don't. People know I'm a socialist, and that's it. Otherwise I haven't said much about it, except Maurice asked me one question about an aspect of it once, which I tried to answer. Apart from that, I don't have much of a socialist obsession.... though I DO have a "Batman" monomania, Kevin's right about that! I consider it the greatest comic (the ONLY real literary superhero comic - which (USED to) have 3-dimensional characters) and one of the greatest modern MYTHS of all TIME... and for quite opposite reasons to what Miller thinks about it! I think he's wrong and I also think this is a deliberate attempt to bamboozle the masses and to "give them a fascist hero" to make them identify with! My socialism of course informs my thinking in this regard. But I didn't come on this blog/site to promote socialism specifically; and I don't have a chip on the shoulder about being a socialist. OK?
It's OK to have a cause - but really! Anyway - when you next spring-clean your belief system... any chance of including within it some kind of outreach to everybody who is NOT "one of you"?
Sam's just got me annoyed because he's accused me of being disingenuous, which I never am, though I can be tentative.
Yes, OK, "not all elitists are fascists", fine. But BEING "elitist", by its very nature, assumes that you are right-wing - let us say, conservative.
Yes I DO worry about definitions...(Kevin!) very important to have something to pin things down... otherwise everything would be Humpty-Dumpty land, wouldn't it??
Labels are important.
And I've found another contradiction in your words, as well, Sam. (You had me going for a minute there, Sam!) You say in your last post, "Obviously, Frank Miller isn't big in my concerns"... no, Sam, that ISN'T obvious to me! When a couple of posts above, you spend ages going on about how you'd love to see the "Superman/Batman movie", which "could be one of the best things to come out of Hollywood", because it would be based on the contrasts between the two characters first picked out by Frank Miller (to my memory!), of whom you say approvingly: "Frank Miller makes it quite clear"...
You spend most of your 5:21 AM post above, going ON and ON about your own particular (extreme!) take on the Batman, and it is quite obvious to me that you are BASING that take on the works and ideas of, largely, Frank Miller! So what are you going on about, he isn't big in your concerns! Nor is Batman I suppose? Tell that to the Marines! IN YOUR OWN WORDS!!
I'm very good at picking out discrepancy, Sam.
Anyway, I TELL you what you would really like... You LIKE Frank Miller fine... but it would be better from your point of view if he was black, hmm?
Yes I thought so!
Bless me for being a cynic.
Nobody wants to stop you from being "excellent", Sam, or from promoting same...
But just don't try to sell me a pig! Whatever the saying is.
There's a contradiction in your thoughts, which I have just started to pick up. You go on and on about popular culture, and superheroes (mainly white in American culture, for the historical reasons I have given above), and the Batman... in fact, your FIRST post on HJ was to do with the Batman! You came out with something rather brilliant about the Batman and shamanism.
And THEN - you contradict yourself! You go on about "crap created by the hacks who manufacture Popular Culture"... yes, but as an American, it is YOUR popular culture (and the world's!) like it or not... and I think you DO on the whole rather more like it... than not! Otherwise why would you be at all interested in fictional superheroes, and profess to know so much about them all, and cite so many American examples... I divine a comic book fan and obsessive collector from childhood!
(And you obviously had the money to do this, as well... or you had brothers who did, or something like that! Whereas with me... I'll tell you, for a long time I had to choose between comics and music lessons, and I chose the latter!)
So... you're promoting a "Cultural-Superman", now, who is in opposition (how?) to the Batman and other comic book superheroes. You maintain that this icon is an "actual agent in history", ie real. (But unfortunately not costumed - just had to add that bit myself!)
Fine! Isn't that what we all just used to call "role models", though?
But anyway, so you obviously are a Miller apologist, to some extent. Even though he's not black, and I fully agree, has NOTHING to do with your other concerns, of "African American Uplift".
Isn't this a lot of extremism about a comic book character!! Kevin, what do you think - about SAM's view, not mine!
I quote from Sam, further above:
>Batman's view is that criminals and citizens must be terrified and horrified into doing the morally correct thing whether they want to or not.< Yeah... but NOBODY can be terrified into doing the right thing, Sam, it doesn't work that way! Out of a negative you will never produce a positive. That's what that Greg Barrett or whatever his name was, was going on about in "Holy Superheroes", wasn't it, Kevin?
You might be able to frighten someone AWAY from doing something, rather than TOWARDS it... but even a negative emotion can produce an obsession... study hypnosis, Sam (are you a psychiatrist?) and find out why!
>His first approach is not necessarily to kill them, but if that happens he doesn't seem to lose a lot of sleep over it.< Where do you get THIS data from, Sam, apart from "The Dark Knight Returns", which can't even be regarded as "canonical", as it's not part of ANY continuity; it's merely a speculation as to how the Batman MIGHT end his career, and Dennis O'Neil admitted as much.
> If he happens to maim them from time to time that is the criminal's fault.< Again, WHERE does he maim any criminals, Sam - apart from in the Dark Knight Returns... where he bashes the Joker's eye out with a Batarang. Not nice, as I've remarked before to Kevin, but neither is it to be regarded as "canonical" - ie as representative of the Batman's behaviour in most comics, even in modern ones.
Anyway, you SEE Sam, it would never WASH: it wouldn't pass a) the DC standard for superheroes' behaviour, which IS I believe laid out by the diegetic (that means "in the story" - John from livejournal told me!) organisation the Justice League. See - superheroes have union rules, too!
b) NON-diegetically, it wouldn't pass the Comics Code, which is now a mangy old lion, but still has the odd tooth. Ie, you COULD not show comics heroes going around maiming people - COULD you, Kevin? At the very least it would have to be in graphic novel format only, and marked "for mature readers" (now ain't that the very contradiction in terms!) Hmm, Kevin?
> His bottom line is to stop the criminal and he is on the thin line between vigilante turned anti-criminal terrorist. Batman is still an aristocrat who believes the masses must be controlled in order to keep order.< Yeah, CHARMING, Sam... but again, what EVIDENCE of this do you have? Where, in what comic, does he say: "I believe the masses have to be controlled in order to keep order"... or where is there a story in which we see him either controlling or disparaging the masses? Judge DREDD, maybe, natch, but NEVER Batman! Not even in our corrupt age of quasi-fascism.
You have no evidence of all of what you say about him! It wouldn't stand up in court for a minute.
Anyway, I believe that all the above that I've just mentioned, amounts to reasons why superheroes in most comics, most of them, are actually pretty WIMPY... and that includes the Batman! Think about it: these days, he's all cry and little wool!
Even Frank Miller makes him thus! He irritatingly goes on for pages, establishing the Batman's "evil" character, saying that he would be willing to torture criminals for information (oh, wouldn't Bush just love him?), and this and that, all sorts of macho rubbish... which culminates in his saying to the Joker something like: "You know, for years I've known the only therapy you need is from my bare hands," or something... and the sophisticated reader, namely myself, thinks to herself: "Yeah; and you're just saying that because the villain is gay", and in addition, the clued-up reader is thinking: "I bet the Joker would sneer and giggle scornfully at that remark, taking it as a clown would - as a double entendre!!" (Therapy from my hands, indeed! Well I wouldn't think it without justification if it all turned into a gay lovefest!)
Hardiharhar. Of course, it DOESN'T turn out like that... of COURSE, DC COULDN'T afford to "offend" homophobes and the religious right, now could it - better to play along with them to an extent... go and read the review of Sin City at www.wsws.org, Sam!!
But that's not what happens... Actually, after some years of not reading it, one thinks that the Batman actually DOES kill the Joker, with his bare hands as he promises... the Joker's spine is definitely snapped, but on RE-READING it, the reader notices that it all happens "accidentally on purpose"... which is probably what gave Burton a similar (and it must be admitted, more dramatic) idea!
No. The Joker breaks his spine at the culmination of his violent fight with the Bat; Frank Miller's visual "narrative" is in fact very difficult to fathom - that's one of the complaints I have against it. But he does it I think by falling off something, don't ask me what. Anyway, he lies there, and they exchange a couple of further futile words, and the Joker decides to finish HIMSELF off.. because he has a broken back, by summoning the strength to wrench his spine round further and thereby snapping his entire spinal cord... which is, as the chiropractors say, your lifeline so he dies... (though I don't think Frank Miller has any great medical knowledge! One would have to snap it pretty high up to die!)
If I was the Joker I wouldn't do that anyway. I would just wait and see what the Batman did!
The Joker has never had a death wish anyway. This is rubbish.
But it just SHOWS one, quite interestingly, that the DC modern view of Batman, promoted to so many young men as "the ultimate in macho", and all those sadistic things you were revelling in, is largely, oddly enough, BULL. Sam. Kevin.
Batman isn't man enough to finish off his own adversary, in DKR! So!!
I daresay this DOES have a lot to do, if not with the Comics Code, precisely (because it doesn't apply to graphic novels or novellas, only numbered comics, n'est-ce pas?), then it does with the Superhero Code in general, and the views of editors such as O'Neil as to what that should actually be... and their veto over the "extremer" aspects of their writer's fantasies... you see, in O'Neil's favour (though I STILL despise his capitulation to the Right in comics), I'm certain now that F. M. wanted to make "Dark Knight" MORE violent, like "Sin City"... and O'Neil as editor wouldn't let him go that far! So then Frank had to go off in a huff and write all this drivel about prostitutes, you see... I know how the spoiled male mind works!
But anyway, the "macho" image of Batman in these modern comics is largely ALL "Cry and little wool", as a farmer would tell you! Bark and no bite. The Batman NEVER manages to avenge himself, for any of the TERRIBLE things that writers make modern comic book villains do... come to think of it, he IS a right wimp!
ESPECIALLY where the Joker is concerned! The Joker tortures, cripples and sexually assaults the daughter of the Batman's best friend Commissioner Gordon; and tortures the Commissioner too... what does Batman do in retaliation? NOTHING! Big deal - some vigilante - ha ha!! As the Joker himself might say! (SEE - told you he wasn't scared! I wouldn't be scared of a superhero like THAT!)
The Joker then goes on to murder the Batman's other close friend, his sidekick, Robin no. 2 Jason Todd. The Batman... well he swears vengeance... and then the Joker disappears... Starlin portrays him in that STUPID, mindless story, as being shot multiple times through the chest and stomach... we see the blood - then his helicopter crashes - but the Batman finds no body, so obviously "he isn't dead". Well, I for one thought this was pushing even comics' poetic license a bit too far!!
And THEN, when he turns up again in comics, the Batman already has a new Robin, having swiftly secured himself a new one (bit like when a pet hamster dies, isn't it?) and so he does NOTHING to the Joker...
Oh yes, this is SO likely, isn't it... paragon of writing achievement, I'd say... NOT!
Perhaps this is where your "crap written by hacks who manufacture Popular Culture" comes in, Sam. For I certainly didn't find it convincing!
As Kevin for his part already knows, because I have discussed this matter with him, and told him how ridiculous I thought it was that not even the Justice League was brought in, stepped in to punish the Joker... ie, by exiling him to another planet or something, which they could have done!
And that would have fulfilled the purpose of it both being true justice - ie, impartial, not administered by the victim - and non-fatal.
But of course, DC are NO longer REALLY interested in morality any more: their writers have no ideals for the most part! And they can't write to save their lives, unlike certain children's book authors. I've said it all before!
Oh, an' Sam...! You HAVEN'T yet told me what you thought of my idea of "Batman Vs. Hannibal Lecter"... well, it's another cinematic possibility, no? (Even if but a blue moon one!)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
That's what they call a sense of humour, Sam.
Hey, Sam. I've combed through your post to Maurice pretty carefully now, never mind read it - and I find it contains about two sentences about what you think about Frank Miller, and the rest is yet more propagandising for your Cultural Cause!!
So, no, I didn't find it that helpful! To the Miller discussion! So don't you be so snarky about it!
I WAS annoyed - rather than upset, about your "DKR" post further above, because it contained a lot of nasty notions and ideas, in my view! There's a lot of pent-up aggression there, Sam! And most of it is against guess who, "the nontalented 9/10ths", would you call them??
Choose your targets better Mr Ewing!
This for example is a vile idea: "Miller uses Batman to ridicule Superman's optimism and trust of human beings."
Boy I WOULDN'T like to see a Superman/Batman movie based on THAT!
(YOU asked for it, Sam!)
>I speak from a first hand account when I say that American Popular Culture and Civic Religion is damaging to American individuals. It is particularly damaging to the African American Community. The very things you don't like about America are the very things that American Pop Culture and American Civic Religion promote. How about that?<
Yeah, how ABOUT it, Sam?
(Sam's obsessions frequently lead to him setting up "straw men", ie saying things that his "adversaries" have said, that they in fact haven't said... rather bullying of him!)
You pair up too many (unconnected) things, Sam... original thinker but poor at formal logic, I'd say! (If you don't MIND my indulging in a bit of criticism of technique!)
Well, U.S. Pop Culture and U.S. Civic Religion... has one anything to do with the other? I don't know! Maybe. Maybe they are both kind of opiates of the people. I don't think there's any DIRECT connection between the two or their respective faults, however. As some Christians complain, pop culture is almost unrelentingly secular: this is a fact.
And I didn't make the connection; and somehow you're implying that I did, or that I spoke of both in the same breath... no I didn't!
Yeah, how about Pop Culture? Yes, it DOES promote a lot of the "very things I don't like"... some of it does! However, OTHER aspects of American culture, such as CERTAIN movies (the Hollywood movie industry is SO vast that it always produces something for everybody, including quite "arty" type movies, such as "The Talented Mr. Ripley", "Ripley's Game", "The Butterfly Effect", "Donnie Darko"... four I've been watching on DVD recently!)
I agree there probably isn't enough for black people or other minorities; that IS its major fault, but there you go.
And American TV ALWAYS has something to amuse!! In an intelligent manner... "The Simpsons", "South Park" (well a couple of the feature-lengths were quite pointed!), "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (my all time favourite, I reckon!), "Six Feet Under", "Desperate Housewives", and so on and so forth. I love a good sharp sitcom-cum-drama. American TV does this so well - it's so sophisticated in many ways, it comes out of a large and sophisticated middle-class part of the culture... so it's not all doom and gloom, though I think they could do more about representing working-class issues and characters without making them all out to be bluecollar numskulls!)
So there are all these good things, you see... and currently (and for some time) it has only been the SO-CALLED "graphic novel" or "adult comics" industry that has been letting the side down so!
Because I'm just SO terribly unimpressed with what passes for storytelling, narrative, plot, characterisation, and "message" in this medium!
There are a thousand better authors and/or works in children's literature, in normal prose but supposedly for a "junior" audience, as I've said. As a matter of fact, I find many so-called "children's books" to be HIGHLY intelligent allegories and fables... to take one at random (and it's quite an old classic), "The Mouse and His Child", by Russell Hoban. THAT deserves its turn on the big screen... and it hasn't had it! WHY Hollywood wants to constantly remake old TV serials and lame graphic novels, when it has American authors like that waiting to be tapped, I can only guess.
But AS for Pop Culture: I make no bones about liking it, or aspects of it, or believing in its intrinsic worth. YOU may not like it... well then, it's up to you and wealthier black people, to support black filmmakers, cartoonists etc, isn't it?? Seeing as that seems to be the REAL issue from your viewpoint.
But any faults it has are faults imposed on it by the ruling class, and certain idiots it chooses to push forward to fool consumers; not faults which are intrinsic to it. Ie, TV won't NECESSARILY "rot your brain". Brainrotting isn't an intrinsic scientific property of TV broadcasting!
As for Civic Religion - no thanks!
Hello Liz,
I would have replied sooner, but time management took precedence. My reply to your comments starts here:
Regarding your claim about the length of my posts I found them to be quite dubious. So far, not one of my posts on the average can come close to matching the overwhelming torrent of verbage that you post nor the number pf places where one can post commentary. In fact, this will constitute the longest post I ever made on this site that wasn't a critical review. *Everything I have said so far is factual.
You make the comment, "The Nietzschean sympathies I think were obvious.... that doesn't necessarily denote "fascist" as I have already said.... However, despite all your talk of "Superman," you now say you don't acknowledge any debt to Nietzsche." ***Once again the smell of a red herring rears its head. First of all it is quite evident that I'm familiar with Nietzsche. I said so myself. Does that mean I am a Nietzschephile? Hardly. However, what I'm pointing out once again, you deliberately construct misleading remarks in which you take the association of Nietzsche/Nazism and imply my being a fascist. No. I don't owe a debt to Nietzsche. I owe a debt to the Greek idea of Arete. I owe a debt to Charles Atlas a.k.a. Angelo Siciliano. I owe a debt to Zeno the first Greek philosopher I ever read about when I was in the sixth grade. I owe a debt to every school of thought that deals with self-improvement from the time I was a child to my present age. I owe a debt to all of my teachers who energized me to strive to become a better me instead of a laggard or thug. I owe a debt to them and numerous others. *And since I'm talking about Nietzsche. Nietzsche himself, for better or worse acknowledges his debt to Greek culture. It was Lucian, the ancient writer who coined the term "Hyperanthropos" that is translated by some pundits in English as "Superman."
Your next comment, "How about Theosophy - I've been recommended to that recently! Any "supermen" in that? Certainly, of course Theosophy has some clear associations with the Fascist and Nazi idea of the "Superman, the Diabolical." In its history in late 19th century and early 20th century it was promoted by the Thule Society, Astara, and other Occult-Military Schools of thought throughout Europe and America. There are many film documentaries on its early ties to Hitler and the Nazi Party.
"I imagine, Sam that you don't like Nietzsche primarily because he was white - and also because of the inevitable Nazi connections....Whereas if he was Black or maybe Indian - you would go crazy all over him, no? Yes, well this too is a form of rascism." ***Hmmmm. Now which is it Liz? You claim I like him implying that I'm a Nietzschephile. Then on the other hand you say I don't like him "primarily because he was white and also because of the inevitable Nazi connections." This sounds like someone with a confused mind. Wow, I never said that I didn't like Nietzsche because he was white or that I don't like white people. Liz, I'm afraid you are really reaching here. *I don't see how this could be "Yes, well, this too is a form of rascism," when it was you putting words in my mouth; revealing your penchant for assumption, presumption, and fabrication. You use insinuations, innuendoes, and allegations that constructs a form of propaganda to fill the spaces in your own mind for the things about me you don't have the answers for. So I will examine your inaccurate and ludicrous statement even further. I happen to like, greatly admire Walt Whitman, Mas Oyama, William James, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Aristotle, Bruce Lee, Herodotus, Henry Thoreau, Siddharta Buddha, Zeno, Dogen, and Parmenides among the philosophers I've read about. Oh no, Liz, there are some White, Japanese, and Chinese philosophers in this group! *I guess that makes me a pro-white, pro-asian RASCIST too huh? Your thesis concerning my views on race is dishonest and ludicrous. Its not very intelligent either. ***And yes, you hit the nail on the head in regards to your statement that you "imagine" what my stand on Nietzsche is and you "imagine" how I feel about issues of race. Yes, it is YOU AND YOUR IMAGINATION that is running wild like a faucet that can't shut off!
"A black fascist?" "Like Jewish fascist," it sounds like an oxymoron, but there are precedents. I suppose Louis Farrakhan would be one. And , No, I'm not saying you that you're like him or necessarily support him or his aims - I don't know, do I?" ***This looks a lot like , to use your word "tentative" and strategic backpedaling. Again in light of what you have said before, this is material fashioned by your own IMAGINATION. NOW, it is time for me to ask a very simple question and you can quote me. "Are all of the Black, White, Asian, and Hispanic teachers who made a positive impact on me "black fascist" because they did an excellent job in teaching me to be "in favour of high achievement(quoting you)" and personal excellence? Well?
"Yes you Do have an "aristocratic" attitude, Sam....and it a rather arrogant one, too! However Kevin, if you're reading - didn't I recently say elsewhere that I loved arrogant people who weren't politicians or rulers... well looks like I'm getting it now!" ***Liz, Liz, what are you whining about now? Where is all that love for "arrogant" me? Even aristocrats appreciate love. Regarding my being an aristocrat. I'm no such thing. I'm a Neoaristocrat-Radical as I stated before and that is different. Of course, I know, I know, you didn't know that, I didn't want to interrupt you. You were trying so hard. Nice try though.
Regarding my opinion on the criminal element you said, "Yeah. You obviously Do have a fear of all those lower than you in the social station...this is a typical conservative attitude. You see them as trying to get you - you in particular - and you resent them for their attempts to get at the status quo"...." "You never see any of them as "justifed" -or at least, that they couldn't be anything else, with the chances in life they were given - am I right? You discount social/sociological explanations of crime, hey?" ****This particular statement is all too typical because you continue to fill in the spaces about what I am. *I guess, besides Frank Miller you need me to be your latest straw man. Well, first of all the part where you talk about them being justified is plain NONSENSE. You tell me Liz, how is raping women justified, how is beating women and children justified, how is willingly participating in murder justified, how is beating up and stealing from little children justified? Your reasoning is frighteningly perverse. I lived under the same adverse conditions as the people you claim to like and I can tell you I've never done any of these crimes. Furthermore, how is committing these atrocities a way to get at the status quo? It simply isn't. Sociological explanations indeed! How ridiculous, I feel sorry for the women and children who hold to your view under adverse circumstances such as these.Those same social forces impacted on me and I resisted them, I don't ascribe to the view that subhumans are some kind of heroes fighting the status quo. That is an insult to the real heroes who tried to help when they were under the hammer. Of course, you made the statement that I was whining because of my life experiences. So what? Anyone who has been in similar circumstances and overcome them has an inherent right to mourn for their tragedies, feel proud of their triumphs, and affirm their lives. Its called being authentic. I don't have any romantic notions about subhumans that by your own words you seem to entertain. I'm very close to that world, though rejecting it, I live in its midst so I don't harbor love fantasies about what actually is. So I'll have more cheese with my w/hine thank you very much.
"Well, that's where you and me differ, again. Yes, I like the little bastards, so help me." ***Yes, we do differ. "I don't like "the little bastards" because I know about what big, dangerous and predatory bastards they can be." And I have the freedom not to like or love them. Yes, you do need help "so help you." For once I agree with you on that part of your statement.
"Well, I am a raging feminist (but not a rabid one!), I do believe in the Goddess (Who I'd rather worship than Karl Marx -bit of clarification of my own position statement here!)...."
***Well. I'm not a raging feminist, but I am a Womanist, I do believe in the the Way of the Superman Benevolent, and I have ideas concerning the Goddess. I happened to have researched the direct link between the Goddess and the Superman (gender inclusive here). They are not mutually exclusive. As a historian, I've discovered that the most ancient ideas about Superman Benevolent originated with the Goddess. How about that Liz? In fact with all your bravado on this blog I might have expected that you could give me further insight on this matter. Sounds like it is a relevant topic to me in keeping with that remark concerning my being on or off topic.
Going back to your countless statements on Frank Miller: I'm aware of Frank Miller and he has the right, profession, and skills to express his paradigm on Batman. That's the American Way, like it or not, Remember? One of the many dubious benefits of that American Popular Culture you like to criticize me for holding up to the light of scrutiny.
"The trouble with Sam is that he is much too stimulating - and also drags the conversation in different directions!.... Don't whine, Sam! And don't accuse people of calling you "fascist" in previous posts when they did Not..." ***Liz, please take your own advise. Liz, stop whining about Frank Miller, fascists, Nietzsche, my views on Miller's work etc. etc. etc.
As regards your statement on the purpose of this site: "Most people on THIS site are Really interested in, which is namely, spiritual matters related to film, comics, literary stuff, mythology...." ****I suppose your continous commentary on Frank Miller, Socialism, writers, how you like criminals, and why your extremely long posts get edited or cut off, what I think of Frank Miller, what is my favorite conception of Batman, fascism, why you wonder if I'm a fascist ad nauseam is what most people would define as spiritual? Hey? I respectfully call that notion into question. In fact with your previous quote and the one concerning your belief in the Goddess; I would say that the very brief Goddess reference is the closest thing to what you state is the website's purpose. This is the closest in all of your voluminous statements posted to anything remotely spiritual. By the way I understand that you are holding me to your standards and interpretation of the site's purpose; you should have the integrity to judge youreself by the same standards.
Also. just because I express interest in a "Superman/Batman movie" which "could be one of the best things to come out of Hollywood" is no indication that I have a big concern about Frank Miller as you claim. I'll leave the glorious obsession about him to you. As you said, that's your forte. My comment, which you took out of context concerned the lack of originality and creativity of Hollywood scripts and acting. With the lack of excellence and quality of movies. I happen to think that Hollywood's "glory days" when the actors, scripts, and production were first rate has obviously fallen. I'm lucky if I go to see more than two or three movies a year. The quality is terrible. And by the way Liz, I happen to think British actors, writers, production etc. is far superior in quality to the dreck Hollywood is dumping in the public venue. Oh No, Liz; does that make me a "black-Anglophile extremist!?" "A black-British fascist!?" Heaven forbid! Katie bar the door!!! *YES,you have been DISINGENOUS and frankly, Liz I think this is truly unworthy of your brilliant intellect. Like you Liz, I also excel at picking out discrepancy. I see comic books and superheroes/villains as part of the American approach on classical literature, themes, and concerns. Unfortunately, American art such as it is is not profound or enlightening compared to other parts of the world. That doesn't mean I can't hope that quality will win out. Or that I can't criticize what is patronizingly inferior quality products dumped in the public venue. I hope I still have the right to do that.
"But anyway, so you obviously are a Miller apologist, to some extent. Even though he's not black, and I fully agree, has Nothing to do with your other concerns, of "African American Uplift." ***This is equally disingenuous and cheap. A rather cheap attempt at associating me with your Miller the Bogeyman. Implying that I only favor black achievers etc. *This is so weak!!! If I am the Millerphile you describe then I would be as confused as you because as far as I know and I could be mistaken; Miller is white. Whether you realize it or not you have just opened yourself up to being judged as a rascist by making a mockery of African American Uplift and associating it with what you perceive as negative associations. The whole statement is designed too paint a dishonest portrayal of my views. Again you are consistent. Speaking of people being arrogant, it reveals YOUR ARROGANCE and RACIALIST thinking. What makes it so pathetic is that you felt you had to do this on the cheap.
"Sam just got me annoyed because he's accused me of being disingenuous, which I never am, though I can be tentative." ***Back-pedaling again Liz? Are you annoyed? I believe that I already pointed out your annoyance with me ever since you went into a tailspin over my comments about FRANK MILLER'S PARADIGM NOT on my personal paradigm about Miller. **Watch yourself Liz, I think your W/hine Cellar and your whining is showing here.Again. Liz, you are the very one that admits to using thought-provoking comments to get a response from me. What? I don't have the right to be thought-provoking? I don't have the right to point out your discrepancies too? Such as how you take my words out of context? What are you saying Liz? Interesting! That sounds like the behavior of a fascist. Are you? A Frank Miller apologist? Are You? You seem to think you've found "contradiction in" my words. You don't see the contradiction and misleading artfulness in yours? However "tentative?" So you say you are NEVER disingenuous?
"Choose your targets better Mr. Ewing." ***Liz, we can all benefit from your advise. Especially you. "Choose your targets better Liz."
I find it interesting that in the last post you made a final statement "that it is up to me and wealthier black people to support black film makers, cartoonists etc, isn't it?" ***No Liz, it is not. Just because they are black does not obligate me to support them. I will only support those black artist who are seeking to elevate the consciousness of blacks and other people. Unfortunately, the so-called black artist in most cases is a hack for the pop culture producing some of the most anti-life propaganda to influence the behavior of the masses. Examples of this are to numerous for me to list here. But one example I will give. The phenomena in the late seventies when they (Moguls of Pop Culture) drove out the current performers whose music was politically conscious and socially conscious. These performers ended up going to Europe and Brazil to continue making a living. Then the Pop culture moguls literally went out in the streets hiring dope pushers, pimps, and others to create the vile crap that is blatantly psychotic and misogynistic. *Shug Knight is the paragon of this perverse anti-hero equation. I'll take this comment as being more of your pedentic tirade since you really don't have any idea of what I do, what I'm doing, or have done in the past. And your last statement on what the ruling class is doing to the masses only serves to make my point. Thank You very much!
From there you jump rather abruptly to the topic of Civic Religion. Again, someone who hasn't read my previous post might think that I'm promoting Civic Religion. *I do believe that I was the one who initially pointed out the pitfalls and adverse properties of the Neochristiancivic-Religion. Your comment about civic religion is, "-no thanks!" This also serves to make my point. Thank you again.
Sincerely,
Sam
P.S.: On another post you gave me a compliment on my demanding "something better" than the current status quo - in Any society, art form or religion." You've expressed my sentiments precisely. ***YES, THIS IS THE LONGEST POST I've ever written, but it still doesn't compare with yours. I acknowledge your compliment and I thank you.
Glad to see that you DO recognise that I sometimes pay you compliments, Sam! Like with your passion for "something better"... what better desire is there than for humankind to progress.
Yes, you have made a supreme effort to answer as many points as possible this time - I congratulate you on the length of your post as well as on the sincerity of your sentiments!
I PERSONALLY wouldn't go around saying, as you do, that "everything I say here is fact" - because the fact IS, that it might not be! *I* could be wrong. So could you. Anyway, much of what I say is always along speculative lines.
I'm also not as "serious" as you Sam - I like a laugh! Yes, that IS a feature of being British! That is a definite cultural difference.
(It's also a class one, I do believe!)
You also make a lot of "accusations" as to what someone's INTENT is, in asking questions... I don't have ANY INTENT... I'm just asking questions! (I was trained as a journalist, as I remind Maurice on his blog.)
I'm curious. Is all.
I also don't look up to set up "straw men". It's just that if someone doesn't say precisely WHAT their position is, and you say something like: "but is it this...." and then give an illustration, you are *then* likely to get some kind of a response, even if it is an indignant one! Obviously my tactic works.
It's called fishing! Not straw men!
(The straw would tend to get too wet.)
I'm just attempting to join up the dots in an outlineless world... Or maybe do some doodling of my own in the vast blank spaces!
Knowing or owing a debt to Nietzsche doesn't necessarily imply that you are a fascist. I would have thought that most philosophers especially American ones acknowledged that.
No, I said or implied you MIGHT admire Nietzsche MORE if he was black! Or Indian. You might list him among your Culture Heroes then - no?
(Do you really think Theosophy contributed to Nazism, BTW? After all, Gandhi was interested in it. Again, is it Blavatski's fault if a lot of crazy Nazis liked Asian ideas because Aryans came from India?)
Anyway, I'm NOT going to be "blamed" for asking, because there ARE black "fascists", is all I can describe them as, like the Reverend Farrakhan.
So you don't align yourself with him? So fine!
Women usually DO use more "tentative" arguments and a "tentative" style of discussion, I have read in various places, that is a sociological observation. They do it in the classroom too. Reason: they don't feel the need to prove they are RIGHT all the time. So they say "well maybe"... not "definitely"... and they speculate and imagine, in their flexibility of mind.
No, teachers who are in favour of "personal excellence" above all else are probably not fascists, Sam. They are very likely conservative, though - because conservatives don't like the possibility of failure and always have to prove themselves superior, hence the emphasis on achievement. They're never happy to be "natural", to be the clowns... unless they're George Bush, that is, and he doesn't have to prove anything because of who his family is. Most conservatives have something to prove, to their own egos as much as anybody else. Come to think of it, I think that does apply to Bush! And no I'm not saying you're like him. Sets and subsets.
.... NOW, going on from here, is where you make me sigh, Sam. So - "Neo-Aristocrat-Radicals" are different from "aristocrats", are they?? Sigh. I suppose they are, they're certainly more arrogant. Whereas most of the ARISTOCRAT aristocrats I see on British TV, like Lord Bath of Longleat... they are modest and gracious - compared to YOU!
>Sociological explanations indeed! How ridiculous, I feel sorry for the women and children who hold to your view under adverse circumstances such as these.Those same social forces impacted on me and I resisted them,<
The above remarks and similar by you serve to illustrate my accurate previous surmise, that you fall FIRMLY into the conservative camp, on social issues. However, it does not answer all questions about crime and human behaviour, nor is it the conservative intention to... they'd far rather ignore social issues and say: "If a few exceptional/lucky individuals CAN, then ALL can..."
Really? So I suppose all Brit single mothers can become Joanne Rowling, then, or all writers can enjoy the same income she has?
You CANNOT prove the rule from the exception.
>I don't ascribe to the view that subhumans are some kind of heroes fighting the status quo<
DID I SAY THAT "SUBHUMANS" WERE - heroes, I mean??
What do you mean as "subhuman"?
Actually, I DO agree with your contention that there *are* subhumans, or rather, humans who act in a manner and to a degree of debasedness - quite consistently, often - that is inexcusable. Real-life candidates I would put in that bracket are the Nazis who ran, and most specifically, those who RULED the Nazi concentration camps, like Mengele and all the commandants. More recent examples would be ALL the American soldiers - and intelligence personnel - involved in and photographed in those DISGUSTING, bizarre, inexcusable activities at Abu Ghraib. I never previously knew Americans could be so disgusting... though over the previous couple of years, now that I discover what REALLY goes on in their prisons and such, I am finding out the truth of the seamy underbelly of the American psyche. No, the British one is not nearly as bad, in my view. Americans would best be described as fundamentalist porno-sadists, in one very stubborn part of their culture! My personal view.
Recent fictional examples of "subhumans" and their behaviour might, I agree, be that of the Firefly family of serial killers in the movie Kevin reviewed, "Devil's Rejects"; also the behaviour of MOST of the characters, NOT just the "villains", in "Sin City".
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE ABOVE ARE HEROES - certainly not me.
HOWEVER, not ALL, nor most, criminals are "subhuman", I will maintain. So will most people apart from ultraconservatives (and the said fascists, sorry! Seems to me however that fascists think that something is "subhuman" if an adversary does it, yet justified if they themselves do it.)
Go into a British higher-security jail - as a journalist, OR an inmate - and see for yourself... whether the majority of the people there are what anyone would describe as "subhuman"?
Have you read ANY prison memoirs, Sam? For a conservative, I would say that those of Jeffery Archer (so many British conservatives have lately been disgraced!) are as good a place to start as any. They're certainly readable, and he tries to be fair.
As for American prisons... read "In the Belly of the Beast". In my and Abbott's view, it is the guards who display and/or spark off most of the inhumanity.
However, the US of A IS a very violent society, and this is reflected in their prisons; I would say that American prisoners are more dangerous and violent overall than their counterparts in other industrial countries.
We are our environments, after all. That is probably something that somebody fixated on supermen such as yourself would not admit.
And NO, I don't think that the majority of *comic book villains* are or were ever meant to be "subhuman" - except when the stories are written by someone like Frank Miller and he is obviously on something, as he was for "DKR" and "Sin City".
Yes, I ADMIRE quite a few comic book villains, and I don't care who knows it, and I DO think that THESE characters count as colourful rebels against the status quo.
And it seems to me, Sam, that you have a soft spot for at least someone like Lex Luthor! Yes, well it's not surprising, him wanting to be a conqueror and such! That WOULD be your style of supervillain!
I'm British. Remember what Orwell said about the British and various displays of pomposity?
Anyway. With regard to the rest: me not spiritual? You obviously haven't read all of my posts!
...No, I DIDN'T make the statement that you were "whining about your life experiences", because at no time have I had much idea as to what they WERE! My mind is a blank on this subject. All we know is what you choose to tell us, which up until your very last post, hasn't been much at all.
I never whine about what OTHERS say about me, Sam: ie, I am not going to give you the tongue-lashing I really could give you... that would be boorish and I rather like you. And no, you're quite right that I don't like Miller the Bogeyman, as you put it! (I wonder if Raymond Briggs would be interested in making that into a cartoon?)
The only reason I go on about that philistine Miller, is that comics "fanboys"... including liberals, including CHRISTIANS, ferchrissakes, including largely sensible people like Kevin, tend to EULOGISE him, even when he goes out of his way to antagonise them, to stomp on their religious and humane values, like with "Sin City"! When I first came to this site I was flabbergasted about that fact by itself and had no idea why it was so... I'm still trying to find out!
Yeah, I think you're quite RIGHT about movies, in that the SCRIPT and IDEAS quality is frequently terrible... not the special effects, eh? Here you and I agree. Glad you're an Anglophile, by the way. Did you ever read Medved's "Hollywood Versus America"? That'd be another matter of interest.
Somebody has to complain!
...And after this is where you largely lose your thread in the above post. Sam Ewing doth protest too much, and that's when he starts to splutter! So, two things are still obvious to me: you ARE largely, though not EXCLUSIVELY, concerned with the "uplift" of your own ethnic group, and you DO - for various Nietzschean reasons - dig part of Frank Miller - eg, what he has to say about Superman and Batman and the "differences" between them, which I personally think and observe to be ones that he alone *made up*, although in his self-created position as the "Homer" of modern American comics, he tries to pretend that they are and were eternal differences. But in the old comics Superman and Batman were good friends. Period.
So, as to Afro-American culture - so you don't like sleazy black rap stars and promoters? OK, point taken, though I wasn't discussing them. You've got strong views about the music scene!
But - black comics writers, artists and cartoonists? The main problem is that there aren't enough, isn't it?
So - are THEY all crap-promoting hacks, then? Christopher Owsley? The Black Panther comic... is that rubbish in your view?
Are all the mainstream black movie actors not worthy, then?
I'm asking you not telling you!
And as for your points on "Civic Religion" - I agreed with them, as you must see, but I really thought we'd presumed enough on Kevin's blogspace.
(Wonder what he thinks of the latest "flamewar"?)
Anyway, you'd dealt with the whole thing, what more was there to say?
It's the Christians who should be responding on that point, but I honestly think they feel intimidated by your aggressive debating style!
Which is probably why Kevin will say or think to himself that we deserve each other.
You're very CLEVER, Sam! Anyone can see that. And I am certain, an (over) achiever. You just need to lighten up a bit now!!
Lighten up, Sam!! "Uplift" yourself!
(Now he's going to be furious because of my pun!)
I think we both share an interest in being "authentic" people, by the way, Sam.
"Romantic notions about subhumans" though - quoi?
First you have to define what you mean by "subhuman"!
And if by it you mean people who didn't do as well as you in school and who, also deprived of industrial employment prospects, took to smalltime drugs dealing - I won't be impressed!
Hmm. Also I think it would be interesting - and I would be grateful for the effort - if you addressed yourself to some of my questions as to how Miller treats gays, women, ethnic minorities (Jews) and so on.
(And some of the very STRANGE "psychosexual" assertions made by something like "Dark Knight Returns"... Although they are LESS blatant than in the Basin City books, they are there. Like... Sam.. DO you not think that it is Miller's evident AIM to present practically ALL his characters as perverts, ie sexual deviants.. NO, I don't mean gays... though when he brings homosexuality into things, he makes sure to mix it up "nicely" with all kinds of other contentious elements.
I mean things which practically EVERYBODY considers evil, namely pedophilia, and/or (unwanted) sadism!!)
Nobody ever seems very "pure" in a MILLER comic, do they? Nobody - not the "hero" nor anybody! As for the villains... well if he doesn't write about Beelzebub incarnate, he just thinks he isn't doing his job, doesn't he, our Frankie?
(Too many modern popular fictions are about "Beelzebubs", when the fact is that evil is far more banal than that!)
THIS, this (anti)religious melodramatic sensibility, is why I get the feeling that Frank Miller was savagely brought up by either born-agains or Jesuits or something - quite possibly the latter, which would explain his anti-Catholicism!
That IS why I HAVE been expressing my views about him at length, Sam! To see if I can't stir up some agreement/disagreement on these SPECIFIC points...
I think it very odd that not more... well, they are mostly male and white, aren't they? comics fans have addressed themselves to these issues before... Even if they aren't all raging lefties (and of course they aren't, or why would they buy Miller etc.?)... well... WHY haven't these issues come into public and Internet debate more?
I raised some of them, and some things about Alan Moore, on a couple of IMDb boards fairly recently, and was interested to see some.... rather grudging... acknowledgement of what I was saying!
It was like the movie and comics fans (at least you tend to get a mixture of the genders on forums that discuss spinoffs of comics rather than the actual comics!) were saying... "Well yeah... OK... so some of the aspects of these stories ARE a bit iffy... but we still like them!"
And "Yeah, your interpretation of the implications of Moore's Killing Joke is probably right... but who cares. Yeah, there IS a bit of gay stuff in DKR, ain't it icky"... (it wasn't my POINT to say that gay = icky, but not everybody on message boards is capable of appreciating subtle arguments!) but [yawn] they seem to go, in passing!
Incidentally, I VERY rarely see anything written by the public or by anybody else that acknowledges that the BASIC TAKE on the villain the Joker in the modern comics is as a homosexual... about ONE review on my fave bookselling site, amazon.co.uk, mentioned it, I think, and that was by somebody in Malta reviewing "Joker: The Devil's Advocate".
You see, so people KNOW this... well NOBODY ON IMDB CONTRADICTED ME ON THESE POINTS... but they don't want to talk about it!
In the expectation, I suppose, that if you don't talk about it, it either doesn't exist, can safely be ignored, or will go away, as polite Victorian ladies didn't talk about sex.
But people REALLY know the score. They KNOW what Miller and Moore and all their crowd are saying, in sexual, racial and socio-political terms.
And NONE of it is progressive!
(And the day either DKR or Killing Joke becomes the basis for a movie, is the day I'm boycotting Hollywood!!)
No, I don't like homophobic/misogynistic rubbish made into either comics or movies - why should I?
As I'm sure I've said to Maurice - what if Frank Miller had been a bit more... sincere about American social problems, in that he had actually mentioned the fact that most street gangs are black or of other ethnic composition... for socioeconomic reasons and no other. But Miller is no socialist. So, OK...he could have written about some black gangs - but made a sort of "Birth of the Nation" scenario. That would have brought his latent fascism out into the open, and who knows, it might just have drawn the ire of Maurice and yourself. It certainly would get people from the ethnic pressure groups after it.
Good - we need cultural watchdogs of some kind!
But I see... slandering women, gays, and Jewish psychiatrists/sexologists.. THAT's OK, is it? (I wonder if GLAAD noticed it all - I think they probably said something, but it was just covered up, as most cultural questions ARE in American society... unless they involve religion or the Ten Commandments in courthouses or something.)
Well, he can just wait till I bring out a comic slandering redneck NRA sympathizers then!! See how he likes that! Or one endorsing Ward Churchill's arguments - yes, I just might!!
Oh, dear, Frank Miller! (And friends!)
You can SEE what sort of people REALLY like him, though... ie, the guy on Amazon.com whose other favourite books were listed as Patrick Buchanan's tomes, etc!
Many who this kind of thing appeals to are mostly racists, and anti-semites!
And yes, it should be discussed more - or you run the risk of a REAL Nazi movement silently developing in America, a mass US Nazi-like movement for the first time EVER!!
The first thing is to make it seem normal in the culture.
Why should ANYONE give credence to what Frank Miller says about things like sexual issues and the human personality, anyway, when he writes true rubbish like "Bin City"?
NOW let's talk about standards! When I was at school the teachers didn't give me top marks for English composition for writing either sadistic fantasies or porn or something else on a very low level. (In fact, as we all THREE very well know, Kevin and Sam, that would have got us into plenty of trouble at the time!)
I had to write something cleverer than THAT!
(Incidentally, with regard to 'O' level English composition, we were told we could use swearwords "in context" as part of a dialogue in a fictional composition for the exam... but "best not to go too far because the examiner might be pushing 80 and you might give him a heart attack, use your common sense", said Mr Hubbard our teacher.)
All common sense advice!
However, the teachers DID fail to tell us that all kinds of immorality/banality does in fact prosper in modern artistic/cultural areas... and not just the obvious ones like the pages of porn magazines, etc.
Well, despite his propensity for "Supermen" I fail to see Frank Miller's work as anything more than that!
RSVP Sam!
Oh, incidentally, Kevin, darling. I've found another linguistic association for "The Devil's Rejects" (another name for the Republican Party, by the way!! HEH HEH!).
Neah, I've just realised... "Firefly" must also be an allusion to "Lord of the Flies" namely Beelzebub. (Should I put that on the right blog?)
I love linguistics!
And no, I'm NOT an expert on "Supermen", Sam, so I wouldn't know anything about your or anyone else's theories of the "Superman Benevolent", whether originating with the Goddess or not!
I'll let YOU tell us about that one - it sounds interesting!
There's always a time where "bravado" must cede to... Whatever it is you've got, Sam!
Do you like C. S. Lewis BTW?
The word "bravado" makes me think of the character Reepicheep from Narnia. (He's a mouse.)
>I'm aware of Frank Miller< - mealy-mouthed, SAYS nothing, Sam, >and he has the right, profession, and skills< (ha ha!!) >to express his paradigm on Batman.< That's the American Way, like it or not, Remember?< So Frank Miller and his "expressions" are the American Way, I'll remember that!
>One of the many dubious benefits of that American Popular Culture you like to criticize me for holding up to the light of scrutiny.< No, Sam, I CAN'T be criticizing you FOR holding up American popular culture TO the light of scrutiny, as that is what I am trying to do MYSELF... without getting all happyclappy and Christian about it!!
(I do love Lewis though!)
Come ON, Sam! Say something INTERESTING about Miller and his "paradigm" for once! Like... well, why does he do any of the things I mention above?
WHY he has found such acclaim among American comics readers I still have no idea.. I mean, it's not like he's... Steven King, even. Or a good crime writer.
I think it's just because he likes to pose as "macho" with his scribblings and a proportion of men - his fans are all men - believe him!
Huh - wimp more like! Wimp with a fear of the Left... yes, AND our symbols in fiction, like the Joker/Divine Fool... thank you for dragging that archetype through the mud Frank; I ASSURE you, you will get it back ninefold.
So Shug Knight is a sleazebag - and Frank Miller is what, a saint? I'd rather have gangsta rap than him!
I didn't used to like it very much... but it grew on me! Eminem too.
Back to you, Kevin.
See - some socialists DO like Christopher Nolan's movie! I meant to SHOW you this, from WSWS's letter page... look! See!
(This is just to pacify you, by the way!)
Well, he liked the MESSAGE, if not the entire plot:-
"I agree that Batman was a bit clumsy; was the setting in China a way of discrediting socialism as a viable alternative? However, what about the central theme of Batman which is thoroughly materialistic, and a call to action in the midst of a city (civilization) in decline: “It’s not who you are inside, but what you do that defines you,” said by both Holmes and Bale? Is this not fairly redeeming? The film also does a fair job characterizing the capitalist class as parasitic, despite the best liberal efforts of the elder Wayne. Also, the “state” is thoroughly indicted for its subservience to exploiters of all colors, the mafia, and the corporate CEOs. I enjoyed the “League of Shadows” as a personification of the decay of socioeconomic systems; they seemed like they embraced a vaguely dialectical outlook. Batman may leave people looking for a savior instead of taking initiative, but it seems to be quite uplifting in that it smashes Raz’s plans in favor empowering people to better their lives, and save civilization.
JF
Portland, Oregon
29 June 2005"
JF from Portland Oregon, obviously a lefty, liked it!
So there's hope for all of us.
And here's the web reference: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/corr-j04.shtml (Not all the public's opinions of movies incl. this one are complimentary, though. Not most of the ones that get published on there!
David Walsh, the Arts Editor on that site, Sam, seems to share your view (more than he does my slightly more optimistic outlook) that most Hollywood movies since the... early 80s? Have been garbage!)
You might like reading his acidic reviews - seriously. Check the site out won't you.
Sam - one more thing! Aristocratic = fascist, is that what you are saying?
>However, there is no doubt that Batman has strong aristocratic tendencies(the doctrine of the rule of the best), in any given time, era, or situation his actions can interpreted as fascist.<
You're very AMBIVALENT on this issue, aren't you Sam? First you say that you don't like fascists, but you do admire aristocrats... but then that (all?) aristocrats are fascist, "not warm and fuzzy"... hmm, I see...
Non-folkish... But what about the pagan conception of the king being the "soul" of the tribe... not something apart from it? What about the FACT that many tribes of old often SACRIFICED their kings - or their kings put themselves up for sacrifice - if things weren't going very well for the tribe?? (THAT is what the whole damn dying and rising god myth is based on - APART from "cereal cults"!)
That might be something you would do well to think on, Sam!
From a pagan point of view!
(Me not spiritual indeed. When I worship the archetypes (which were my first religion, before I even realised what all this stuff WAS) and the Goddess!! Humph!!)
Final little morsel of food for thought: About your Dracula ideas (it might NOT be a bad idea, Sam, and honestly, I DON'T think you'd be a bad fiction writer; you're far more intelligent than Miller and Moore any day, even if we don't see eye to eye! I honestly think that you should try writing the graphic novel script about Bats/Dracula, and somehow showing it to DC, I don't know how though, maybe you should ask Kevin... you might need an agent because the last time I looked DC's publications say: "no unsolicited manuscripts"!)
But I think that YOU would have less trouble getting YOUR ideas published by a mainstream publisher than I would... because you're not left-wing you see Sam... and the ONLY THING The Man TRULY fears, is the Left... Hence all the rejection of such ideas, especially in the U.S. It's not the "folk" culture, Sam, it's the RULING CLASS IMPOSED VIEW.
But anyway - have you by any chance read the works of Anne Rice, seeing as you're so interested in vampires?
She's a bit "homoerotic" - that might put the conservatives off! But she mentions this idea, too, of the vampires feeding on criminals and those they find "unworthy"... in her sequels to "Interview with the Vampire" she explains that vampirism apparently began as a kind of sacrificial cult in which the objective was to "Spill the blood of the evil-doer" or something. I don't know if she's right historically... but I've chimed with other theories of hers!
So - yes, you could have Dracula going around preying on criminals, couldn't you?
And then the "syndicate" or whoever in the story, would beg the Batman to protect them - wouldn't they?
COULD he refuse their plea?
WOULD he let Dracula just wander around Gotham feeding at will?
I'll tell you something though. The vampire, Drac or whoever, had better not try his trick on one of the costumed guys - specifically, the Joker!!
I'll tell you why not! Because THAT one's grip on the life force is so STRONG... that he'd never take death lying down. (Pun intended!)
It depends what "theory of vampirism" you're going to employ in the story. But anyway, if Drac got the Joker, the Joker would either turn round in that very instant and bite Drac back, turning himself into a vampire instantly... or he'd fall on the floor only to rise out of the grave (or the police morgue?) later on!
He's actually done it before in ancient comics - but not as a vampire!
The Joker wants to LIVE!
Anyway. The saving grace of a Dracula story involving the Joker is that there is a possibility for laughs in it!
(Which is probably why you wouldn't write it with this character.
Oooh - and Joker could be SO homoerotic as a vampire it's not true!)
Look at this folks! America SO often gets it wrong - it's forever jailing the wrong person and confusing people who have the same surname - like in the 2000 elections...
http://www.freepress.net/news/9986
They're jailing the wrong Miller! Surely there must be some mistake somewhere... Now in a just world...
Hello Liz,
This reply is to your reply on my last response should clarify things further, however, I must rely on the fact that you continue to re-invent through your own interpretation any statements I make. *It appears that this one crucial factor is something I can depend on.
1. My reference to stating that everything "I say here is fact" is literally referring to everything I stated prior to saying the statement,"I say here is fact." I was referring to the very first paragraph.
2.I think I was very clear concerning Nietzsche and who I owe a debt to. And the other statement concerning my alleged race or color preferences if Nietzsche were anything but white is just you being typical Liz. Typical Liz being condecending, insulting, and nasty-nice. I won't belabor the topic or waste another moment on it.
3.If you choose to research the subject of Theosophy you will find that in spite of its present benevolent side it had a very diabolical history. Recommendation? Do the research. A helpful hint? "The Occult History of the Third Reich: Video documentary; 4 video set 1)Adolf Hitler, 2)The Enigma of the Swastika, 3) Himmler the Mystic, 4)The SS Blood and Soil. *This documentary shows rarely seen footage with pictures and names about Theosophy and the Aryan Myth.
4.In regards to my lack of "graciousness." And?.... From the historical perspective the traditional aristocracy "graciousness" doesn't for the most part seem to treat people very well. Why would I want to emulate polite-cunning designed to control the masses when I don't believe in controlling them (I'm anti-collective remember?. However, the alternative of being "gracious" and Machiavellian to maintain the status quo (my quote) is my approach. My approach being intolerant of authority figures who encourage collectivity and exploit individuals. As for my "arrogance"; Yes, being direct, sincere, honest, and forthright at times is perceived as "arrogant." In that case, in the name of authenticity, integrity, and humaneness I'll take more arrogance and a lot less manipulation and exploitation.
5. It is clear what I've defined as "Subhuman." I've quoted you and I gave a rebuttal to your comments. Plain and simple. The Devil's Rejects are "Subhuman." *I agreed with Kevin about the Superhero/Supervillain - Serial/Mass Killer association and opposition. The Superman-Diabolic has been a subject written about by Gogol, Pasternak, and Dostovesky to name a few. Fascists are Collectivists and to create a collectivity they choose to Be Subhuman. *I think my position has been clarified and I will not be repeating myself on my opinion on this again.
5. American society's violence is well-known to me. My point affirmed once again.
7. As for Lex Luthor: his character at times has been written along classical lines. This character is what the ancient Greeks would call "tragic" in the tradition of Aesheschyles "Orestes" or the Oepidus tragedy. Lex also has a lot in common with Siegfried/Sigurd who is exceptionally gifted but very stupid. *I've personally known of people who are like this. This alleged soft spot you talk about is your own imagination again. I'm not fond of him, he has no legitimate excuse for his actions and for me his defeat is a joy.
8. Your statement that you are glad I'm an "Anglophile" is too limiting as is your reference to me being a "libertarian conservative." I admire all forms of greatness,,beauty, character, and heroism whether it comes from the West, Africa, Asia etc. All greatness of character, intellect, and heroism generally interests me. I'm finished explaining this on this site.
9.No, Idon't like the Subhuman Anti-Heroes like Jason Voorhees, Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Pinhead. Nor do I like or admire real ones like Charles Manson and the Family (the real life Devil's Rejects), Son of Sam, the Zodiac Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer etc. etc. Oh, by the way Liz this also includes Nazis, Fascists, Race Supremists etc. They are monsters. I don't have to like them or sympathize with them. And I won't. Simple as that. *Quote Me, I am very serious on this matter, unlike you I am unable to be light-hearted, flippant, or able to "lighten up" on this subject. As a survivor of real life monsters; I find no humor in the discussion of this type. More than once I 've found your attitude to be inappropriate and insensitive. *My sympathies will always be with the survivors not the perpetrators.
10. Purity of heroes and villains. For me this is irrelevant. Purity as most people interpret is perceived as a type of perfection and keeping things in their proper order. Perfection is a false, static absolute that doesn't exist in a world where change is the rule. Now, IMPROVEMENT, however, is a possibility (hence desirable).
11. I think my stance on gays, women, ethnic groups (not just the Jews, Liz) is very clear. I'm against any form of oppression that is specifically directed at any group especially at individuals. Whether it be your Miller the Bogeyman or Adolf Hitler. *I also don't think that poverty should be used to justify subhuman behavior. I know about poverty so I'm not fooled by this excuse. In the future I won't take anymore time on this subject either.
12. No one is asking you to apologize for anything you said, that would be the last thing I would expect from you, but just remember when you make statements that misleading under the guise of being "tentative" (manpulative) and nasty-nice you may get a response from time to time. It is quite obvious that when you have asked me certain questions in the past mixed with allegations you do have an INTENTION in mind.
13. "Come on Sam say something interesting about Miller and his paradigm for once!" My reply to this Liz, "Come on Liz say something more interesting than how you loathe Frank Miller. Say something honest in our discussion(?) without twisting my statements."
14. "Sam- one thing more! Aristocratic=fascist, is that what you are saying." My reply: "Liz-one thing more! Aristocratic -fascist is that what you are saying?" After making it clear that I'm not an aristocrat you continue to be the same old, manipulative, condescending, "tentative" Liz, the Brit. Dear old Liz. Always spoiling for a new fight. Sorry, Liz, I can't sink down to that level of wanting to find continual pretexts to have an "argument" as you put it. I'm interested in discussion, I consider your subterfuge of womanly "tentativeness," being nasty-nice, twisting my replies (that you justifiably call looking for discrepancies), as anti-discussion, and inane. it is also so tiresome and pointless. You've got to find some other way to hold my interests.
15. Regarding, Dracula or any vampires, I don't like them, but their defeat is a joy. Your speculation on my being a right-wing or left-wing righter is ludicrous. Whatever I right is written from my point of view not from the right or the left. I can't even count how many fervent "right-wingers" as you might call them don't agree with me. And neither do I care. I here the beat of a different drum and I'm doing the drumming. *Sounds to me like you have a lot more ideas than I have on Dracula vs. Whatever. Go to it Liz, show us how real graphic novels are written! You can do it!
Sincerely,
Sam
P.S.: Batman and Frank Miller. That's what makes life more exciting doesn't it?
Hello Liz,
This reply is to your reply on my last response should clarify things further, however, I must rely on the fact that you continue to re-invent through your own interpretation any statements I make. *It appears that this one crucial factor is something I can depend on.
1. My reference to stating that everything "I say here is fact" is literally referring to everything I stated prior to saying the statement,"I say here is fact." I was referring to the very first paragraph.
2.I think I was very clear concerning Nietzsche and who I owe a debt to. And the other statement concerning my alleged race or color preferences if Nietzsche were anything but white is just you being typical Liz. Typical Liz being condecending, insulting, and nasty-nice. I won't belabor the topic or waste another moment on it.
3.If you choose to research the subject of Theosophy you will find that in spite of its present benevolent side it had a very diabolical history. Recommendation? Do the research. A helpful hint? "The Occult History of the Third Reich: Video documentary; 4 video set 1)Adolf Hitler, 2)The Enigma of the Swastika, 3) Himmler the Mystic, 4)The SS Blood and Soil. *This documentary shows rarely seen footage with pictures and names about Theosophy and the Aryan Myth.
4.In regards to my lack of "graciousness." And?.... From the historical perspective the traditional aristocracy "graciousness" doesn't for the most part seem to treat people very well. Why would I want to emulate polite-cunning designed to control the masses when I don't believe in controlling them (I'm anti-collective remember?. However, the alternative of being "gracious" and Machiavellian to maintain the status quo (my quote) is my approach. My approach being intolerant of authority figures who encourage collectivity and exploit individuals. As for my "arrogance"; Yes, being direct, sincere, honest, and forthright at times is perceived as "arrogant." In that case, in the name of authenticity, integrity, and humaneness I'll take more arrogance and a lot less manipulation and exploitation.
5. It is clear what I've defined as "Subhuman." I've quoted you and I gave a rebuttal to your comments. Plain and simple. The Devil's Rejects are "Subhuman." *I agreed with Kevin about the Superhero/Supervillain - Serial/Mass Killer association and opposition. The Superman-Diabolic has been a subject written about by Gogol, Pasternak, and Dostovesky to name a few. Fascists are Collectivists and to create a collectivity they choose to Be Subhuman. *I think my position has been clarified and I will not be repeating myself on my opinion on this again.
5. American society's violence is well-known to me. My point affirmed once again.
7. As for Lex Luthor: his character at times has been written along classical lines. This character is what the ancient Greeks would call "tragic" in the tradition of Aesheschyles "Orestes" or the Oepidus tragedy. Lex also has a lot in common with Siegfried/Sigurd who is exceptionally gifted but very stupid. *I've personally known of people who are like this. This alleged soft spot you talk about is your own imagination again. I'm not fond of him, he has no legitimate excuse for his actions and for me his defeat is a joy.
8. Your statement that you are glad I'm an "Anglophile" is too limiting as is your reference to me being a "libertarian conservative." I admire all forms of greatness,,beauty, character, and heroism whether it comes from the West, Africa, Asia etc. All greatness of character, intellect, and heroism generally interests me. I'm finished explaining this on this site.
9.No, Idon't like the Subhuman Anti-Heroes like Jason Voorhees, Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Pinhead. Nor do I like or admire real ones like Charles Manson and the Family (the real life Devil's Rejects), Son of Sam, the Zodiac Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer etc. etc. Oh, by the way Liz this also includes Nazis, Fascists, Race Supremists etc. They are monsters. I don't have to like them or sympathize with them. And I won't. Simple as that. *Quote Me, I am very serious on this matter, unlike you I am unable to be light-hearted, flippant, or able to "lighten up" on this subject. As a survivor of real life monsters; I find no humor in the discussion of this type. More than once I 've found your attitude to be inappropriate and insensitive. *My sympathies will always be with the survivors not the perpetrators.
10. Purity of heroes and villains. For me this is irrelevant. Purity as most people interpret is perceived as a type of perfection and keeping things in their proper order. Perfection is a false, static absolute that doesn't exist in a world where change is the rule. Now, IMPROVEMENT, however, is a possibility (hence desirable).
11. I think my stance on gays, women, ethnic groups (not just the Jews, Liz) is very clear. I'm against any form of oppression that is specifically directed at any group especially at individuals. Whether it be your Miller the Bogeyman or Adolf Hitler. *I also don't think that poverty should be used to justify subhuman behavior. I know about poverty so I'm not fooled by this excuse. In the future I won't take anymore time on this subject either.
12. No one is asking you to apologize for anything you said, that would be the last thing I would expect from you, but just remember when you make statements that misleading under the guise of being "tentative" (manpulative) and nasty-nice you may get a response from time to time. It is quite obvious that when you have asked me certain questions in the past mixed with allegations you do have an INTENTION in mind.
13. "Come on Sam say something interesting about Miller and his paradigm for once!" My reply to this Liz, "Come on Liz say something more interesting than how you loathe Frank Miller. Say something honest in our discussion(?) without twisting my statements."
14. "Sam- one thing more! Aristocratic=fascist, is that what you are saying." My reply: "Liz-one thing more! Aristocratic -fascist is that what you are saying?" After making it clear that I'm not an aristocrat you continue to be the same old, manipulative, condescending, "tentative" Liz, the Brit. Dear old Liz. Always spoiling for a new fight. Sorry, Liz, I can't sink down to that level of wanting to find continual pretexts to have an "argument" as you put it. I'm interested in discussion, I consider your subterfuge of womanly "tentativeness," being nasty-nice, twisting my replies (that you justifiably call looking for discrepancies), as anti-discussion, and inane. it is also so tiresome and pointless. You've got to find some other way to hold my interests.
15. Regarding, Dracula or any vampires, I don't like them, but their defeat is a joy. Your speculation on my being a right-wing or left-wing righter is ludicrous. Whatever I right is written from my point of view not from the right or the left. I can't even count how many fervent "right-wingers" as you might call them don't agree with me. And neither do I care. I here the beat of a different drum and I'm doing the drumming. *Sounds to me like you have a lot more ideas than I have on Dracula vs. Whatever. Go to it Liz, show us how real graphic novels are written! You can do it!
Sincerely,
Sam
P.S.: Batman and Frank Miller. That's what makes life more exciting doesn't it?
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Hello Liz,
Goodbye Liz. Rant and rave with yourself. You've got yourself to cover all pros and cons. You've got all the answers so you don't need to ask questions. And since you excel at dominating blogs and websites I'm sure it won't be long before you really give that Miller the Bogeyman what for, hey? You can do it! That's it Liz. You sure showed me and anyone else who comes to this blog. Don't mess with the Liz! Don't mess with the Liz! Dear,old Liz still spoiling for a new fight. Can you win a fight with yourself? *If anyone can do it you sure can. My bets on you.
Sam
P.S.:Give Batman my regards.
Ha ha ha! Never mind Batman - how about a Libertarian - Troll??
It's always possible to smoke out a troll if you ask them the right questions.
Oh and BTW - regarding Frank Miller, or You-Know-Who, as I may possibly refer to him on this site in the future. (prefer it to "Bogeyman" - too Briggsesque.) I most certainly DO intend to give this "gentleman" what for in print sooner or later - and it's about time the rest of the rather pathetic and one-sided comics industry got it too. I'm far more interested in criticising them than Hollywood for reasons which should be obvious.
But it's NOT as if I'm expecting Frank Miller to CARE... well, not unless it got onto the TV news, possibly, which it won't, would he ever CARE. Even if it was in the NYT, he would just block his ears and go la la la. People like THAT are only amenable to the most sycophantic approaches, coverage and flattery; which is why Robert Rodriguez had to practically polish Frank's boots for him in order to get his permission to make his movie for him - and promise to make it an almost PRECISE copy of the graphic novels. Now SERIOUSLY - *which* other author gets that treatment?? Maybe Stephen King, and he's a multimillion bestseller and usually produces his own movies anyway. Any authors who AREN'T producers get that same level of "care"? Does Joanne ROWLING... the biggest seller most of the time on ALL the bestseller lists for years now - does SHE get that level of "attention"? No, but then she's only a woman, isn't she. And she doesn't write revolting garbage.
Don't talk to me about Frank Voldemort. And don't expect me to feel sorry for him or you. (BTW - you should LOVE Rowling if only for the villains, and I highly recommend you to read those novels... we know that Sam is always concerned primarily about his own ego, so he might be shy of his acquaintances seeing him reading a children's book. But, Sam, that shouldn't put you OFF because there IS a solution; they offer the HP novels in various cover designs, you see, some more "serious"-looking than others... there's one set for adults specifically which looks like industrial design. Read those and exult in the doings of your soulmate Lord Voldemort, himself a "Neo-Aristocrat-Radical" bullcrapper; well he certainly isn't a REAL aristo, you see; not in wizarding terms anyway because his father was posh but human and abandoned him to an orphanage. So he had to manufacture this superlative idea of "Lordship" for himself, and he did this by walking all over other people, scorning the "ordinary", formulating ideas to do with Power and the Superlative... believing that "Muggles", or humans without his powers, were "subhuman"... yes, YOU TWO HAVE A LOT IN COMMON...)
Why don't you cosy up with a nice Voldemort story then. Who knows, he might even beat the "bumbling", non-superhuman Harry in the end and you'd have something really to rejoice about!
Anyway, Sam, you're certainly a bad loser - and I've called you right - and I have absolutely NO remorse for that at all!
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Liz: I have probably let this "debate" go on far longer than I should have, considering how nasty it has ended up. At least Sam showed the good sense to get out while the getting was good. I have deleted a number of your posts due to your thinly veiled expletives. You should know better than that. If I see any more of that on my blog, you will be banned permanently. I'm sorry to come down so hard on you, Liz, but you forced the issue. In the future, I think we should all focus less on proving the veracity of our points of view and more on listening, RESPECTING, and responding thoughtfully and charitably to what others have to say.
Oh, hello, Kevin - steps in at last!
Seriously, Kevin, I wondered why you hadn't waded in sooner! And don't keep your criticism just to me... otherwise I shall have to conclude that all right-of-centres (which I have to conclude, on the whole, I DO find most Christians... I don't look for it to be like that, I just think it turns out like that! Well. In America, anyway!) stick together.
No, I knew that you'd "make your appearance" at some time... but in fact, I had this rather cartoonish image in my head, of you ducking behind a boulder and wondering when the battle of the saurians would be over!!
Well, it did come to an end! As you saw. A logical enough one.
But - cheer up, Kevin! I *told* readers many posts back that this section of the blog *was* a flamewar, and therefore, they should not have been in any way surprised, or felt... ambushed. It certainly was a flamewar; one between two opposing intellectuals, as well! Any "lurkers" will have got their money's worth.
The one starring feature of Hollywoodjesus blogs, you really must have noticed by now, Kevin, is not the *quantity* of contributions (you guys are barking up the wrong tree if you want quantity, this blog will never attract them... I'm working out why, I think it's got as much to do with the "book look" as anything!) but their *quality*. Even your flamers, however hot, are intellectuals... you guys should be proud. "Always Look On The Bright Side" as the Monty Python team would have it. I have to. I can't afford your misery.
Part of the reason I came over to "haunt" this blog for a while... I recognise that one can only be a novelty for so long, however... that's an important factor... well, part of it was because I was tired of some of the blogs at about.com, I just have to tell everyone this, which were full of people making snide comments, but not very intellectual ones, about personal attributes, people's picture signatures, signing on as "clones", etc, posting posts in baby language, or that had nothing to do with the subject at hand, you name it. It however has "nested" posts, which is an advantage sometimes, and it also allows people to start "threads"... another good thing about message boards. And *one* idea they had was brilliant, on the "paranormal" part of the blog, which was to add a section to talk about non-paranormal-topics, ie current affairs, after 9-11. I thought it was a good idea... but was disappointed to find that most of the "regulars" on there were the frivolous kind, who couldn't stay on a topic to save their lives. So. If you think this blog ever gets bad... Go to some others and watch the sniping!
Anyway, how was Sam THAT "respectful" towards me and MY point of view/sensibilities, Kevin? A lot of long words does not a respectfulness or whatever make.
I THINK Kevin, that you are not naive enough to not have noticed, that some of Sam Ewing's views are DECIDEDLY, well, objectionable... to the "modern", or postmodern, postwar consensus, never mind the left-wing point of view. Lots of people would say so. Except a few Randists and Libertarians and such...
And they, the other politically aware writers, veterans of Democratic boards, etc, would "call" him on those ideas as I did... you wouldn't do it, you *don't have the gumption*, quite frankly, Kevin, and I can only put it down to the fact that you haven't visited many political boards yet to hone your debating skills! Try DemocraticUnderground, In These Times, etc. And don't tell me to try them, I'm already there!
I'm also a *very* good judge of character, Kevin, if you aren't... I think you aren't, sometimes. The reason I had to push Sam a bit and probe his ideas on certain topics, in a more personal manner, was, you see, because I wanted to find out if there *was* indeed a more generous nature (and a sense of humour) lurking in behind all that crustiness and misanthropy encapsulated in the ideas of elitism and such... You know what he thinks, there is no need for me to repeat it, because he outlines it pretty well above... unless you've deleted some of HIS posts, too!
And I actually found out that there, well, wasn't. So I satisfied my curiosity - didn't I? And I - lifted a mask you might say. (Appropriate for a Batman-related blog!)
If he had wanted to make some points and have a back and forth discussion privately in an e-mail, I GAVE him that option, a few weeks back, exhorted him to use it, in fact. He declined to do so. Instead, he chose to insult me on this board, in whatever kind of flowery/snide language, I don't care. Whoever does THAT - should expect to get the same BACK - and more! But, as I said... at least this has been a battle between intellectuals and not mere guttersnipes, if you will (I am thinking of the "lager louts" who infest British pubs and who say nothing beyond football)...the Internet is useful in that way, in that it gives "great minds who don't think alike" a chance to... have it out. You should be PROUD, Kevin, to host such posh flamewars! The London coffeehouses in the 18th century never heard finer, I don't suppose. Only they would have said "sir" and "sirrah" a lot more, and if it got to this point, swords may well have been drawn! Ah reincarnation, the fighter needs to believe in it... I think I was there, once!!
Oh, and believe me, Kevin, their language would have been a LOT worse; and their metaphors more... colourful. Than anything on here! Most Christians swore in those days - fact. G. F. Handel! W. A. Mozart!
So don't make the excuse that you deleted a post because of an asterisked-out swearword or two... come on, Kevin, you've never done that before. Anyway, I'm sure I asked someone here - it must have been Maurice - for confirmation about an "obscenity code"... and he said the site didn't really have one, only like, sexual posts wouldn't be welcome! Neither does the software block out most or *any* swearwords, from what I can make out; unlike many message boards. So I did what *they* do and just put in my own asterisks! Sorry if you didn't like the style! That's one thing I *did* try to conform on, all along! Oh well...
Delete me, for all I care! But recognise that Liz speaks the often awkward truth! And if you're not interested in truth, what can you be interested in?? (Hmm yes, but suppose a gang of ardent "Darwinians" "invaded" this blog? Well actually... I think on one hand, it would shake you all up properly! I've already e-mailed Maurice my ideas about the possible interest of reviewing a novel by a famous fantasy writer called "Darwin's Watch"...)
I suppose there ARE - yes, even *i* have to admit this - times when people just have to "agree to disagree" like gentlemen or Little Lord Fauntleroy or something... But I always hoped that this difference would be, on JUST that, scientific controversies, not moral ones... Well, as I said to Maurice... if you get yourself a racist on this board, you'll have a hard job "agreeing" with him.
(You have been warned, by someone with predictive abilities! You don't know what's behind the corner...)
Some people, you see, like our friend Sam, just have cold personalities, and this comes over surprisingly clearly in their writing. Others, like me, have warm ones, but you can't always equate warm with compromising. Apologise will I never for this fact. FACT it is. Non-negotiable.
I don't care if it hurts... even if it hurts me! Sam WAS correct on certain ideas, more than he'll know. Some people who are strong enough, with the belief and the WILL, just DO make their own rules! That is, I take it, what all this (semi)nonsense about "supermen" really boils down to, Sam, if you're lurking, as I bet you are.
Dammit, Liz, I guess I was wrong about the obscenity thing. Sorry. :) Being a guest on this site myself, I was just trying to be as sensitive as possible to the powers that be.
As for my absentia from this debate, it has far more to do with fatigue than fear. You've just overwhelmed me, Liz, worn me out. Like Sam, I surrender. I give up. I admit I can't possibly match you in terms of volume or intellectual muscle. That said, I am thankful that people like you and Sam even bother to visit this site, much less participate as often as you do. I was wrong to lay into you like I did. I guess that after I saw all the Miller-bashing (which I've grown very tired of) and then the pseudo-swearing, I just said enough is enough. I should have counted to ten slowly instead. Perhaps that's a good lesson for us all.
In the future though, I would like to see debates focus more on issues than on bashing particular people. However, I guess it is hard to keep a rational mind in the thick of the battle.
I feel most sad about how you titled your post, Liz, about how you are no longer a novelty. I'm sorry if I've let you down in terms of responses, but as I've said in other places, during the summer I've barely had time to complete my paying work much less look after this site.
You are most welcome on this site, Liz, and I hope you will continue to leave your insightful comments. However, just don't count on me to be able to respond very often. Life has finally caught up with me.
K
Why thank you, Kevin! Glad that novelty isn't the only positive factor!
Yes, I think you are right... life has caught up with ME, too! And something funny has happened to my internet connection... it seems OK now!!
What are you saying, that you haven't got the intellectual muscle? Those "Devil's Rejects", for example, reviews look fine to me...
"Pseudo-swearing"... yeah. Maybe I should have gone with my original concept about this site, and strenuously tried to avoid swearing at all, "because it's a Christian site". Maurice however might have lulled my expectation on this... I shall blame him!
Ah, we've all been naughty at some time, haven't we... I suppose I had better cool down, too. Though my instincts in the heat of controversy are to THROW everything that isn't nailed down!! That works metaphorically as well!
I just pick it up and throw it! With the greatest of enthusiasm.
Don't you think that the comic book characters - ie villains (I'm telling you all, they're the KEY to understanding, nobody believes me) do that too??
Aren't they just another example of the "natural man" - the savage? (I don't know about Rousseau's noble savage in this context, but.)
I wonder that most modern authors seem to think that they're never abashed, either... that they don't have "moods" like other people... these "freaks", these villains from comics. They're intelligent, nuanced, enough to have a lot of variations in emotion... and yet these supposed "adult" comics don't seem to portray many... It's just sort of like: "I'm the Joker, the Demon King... and... I'm going to blow Gotham up for no reason!" Repeat plot ad infinitum.
Once the Joker, Two-Face etc have nothing else to "throw"... they will be quiet for weeks, depend upon it!! There is only so much malice one can expend... Takes ages, to recharge your battery to a sufficient level of nastiness!
(Whatever Greg Rucka says... yes, I'll bash him for a change!)
As for YOU, Sam... don't you let yourself be put off TOO much! I daresay you will visit again somewhere on this site in the future... You were a VALIANT adversary. This MUST be said... well not exactly, maybe, valiant, but doughty. You seem to fall into the "libertarian" camp on many issues.... but not precisely Randist, hmm? I suppose not? Because I don't observe you as 100% materialist... nobody would be who was that into mythology and that knowledgeable about it... Believe me, I know other Libertarian rightists, most are blowhards, but they don't have your intellect, not by a long chalk!! (There is or was one on ITT, who is a bit intelligent... but is equally as stupid - maybe he falls into your "Sigurd" camp! Anyway, he does things which all trad criminals FROWN on - namely - going after people's families! London gangsters will never or rarely ever do that. Verbally or otherwise. Believe me.)
Far as intellectual arm-wrestling is concerned... yes, he really DOES have the "muscle", no, Kevin? I am one of the few who have been privileged to feel it creak!
Least you tried, Sam. And you really DID make the effort!
Truly, it was a battle of the Titans... if a rather rude one! I think we must have smashed some metaphorical furniture!
Never mind, Sam. At least we were better than that stupid Greg Rucka graphic novel that I have just complained to Maurice in an email about... "Batman: No Man's Land", indeed! That one with the earthquake and the pollution... Bane and the Joker fighting it out over the ruins of Gotham indeed - who wants possession of a ruin??
Well, maybe it's just for the sake of the fight! You be Bane, Sam. You'd be good as Bane! I'll take the part of the Joker, thank you.
(This is the ironic thing - superhero comics are all about fights - and Kevin takes... offence... when a couple of rogues have one closer to home!!)
Least we didn't kill anyone, Kevin!
HA HA HA HA HA!! HA HA HA HA HA!!
Ah, but what Kevin should have done in my absence, you see, is to say to yourself: "ah, she's left for a while... so now I'm going to sneak my Frank Miller DKR reviews on the site!"
I thought I'd already promised not to post long counter-reviews under them, on your page?
I thought I had...
After all, you have been planning them for a while... (It's easy, anyway... all you have to do - if you WANT to address the issue, which I don't know if you do... is say something LIKE: "Like Richard Wagner, this writer has on occasion been accused of being right-wing. [So he has, I'm not the only one to say so, only the one who shouts about it!] But I don't think so, because....."
It's the because I can't fill in!)
Americans go all lethargic in the summer, ITT board have done it too, until after your Labor Day, which the U.S. (I don't know about Canada) has on the first Monday in September.
Then you liven up again! I know this. I've just had a long and boring summer; if I had more of a life, I'd have gone away on holiday somewhere...
Paradoxically, something tells me I'll have a much busier September...
And in the winter... well I've got at least two historical novels I want to write! Least I don't need an illustrator for those.
And finally I want it to be known: NEVER will I say anything against the Christian religion, and certainly not on this site! Despite my own religious preferences. Never will I say anything against the son of Man.
I may occasionally complain about religious rightists! However, it is not in fact my purpose, of coming to this site, to look for fights with "born-agains" in particular. (You must excuse me if you call yourself that and you are not a "rightist"... they never used that word born-again in my own Sunday school and that is all I know.)
Let it be also noted that my greatest disagreement here has been with someone who has... suggested... that he is probably an atheist.
Let it be also noted that many writers in comics are NOT good Christians! Whatever else they are. They are not socialists either, nor any other kind of leftist I have ever seen... which is the real point I am after making! (For some like to give a vague impression that they are... usually because of something that they wrote in nineteen-eighty-wotsit!!)
Told you some leftists liked "Batman Begins", though, Kevin - you didn't notice that bit - well maybe you did because you didn't delete it!
I was moderate with my praise only because I'm spoiled enough - and have the palate to - want everything in a movie! Aesthetic appeal plus argument.
But actually, I bet Frank Miller - yes! Didn't like it completely either - because it portrayed Wayne senior as a raging liberal!
Don't you know Frank Miller calls all liberals and their customers "grievance groups"?
OK, so no more about F M....
Kevin,
As a concerned Christian,I think it is unfortunate that this Liz the Brit has completely taken over the blogs. Her behavior is embarassing especially in regards to Sam. Though I don't share all of Sam's viewpoints he did bring some real concerns and historical perspective to the issues that the Batman movie implies and the social issues of America. Liz's cursings, verbal attacks, and misrepresentations of Sam's views is very disturbing.
Sam never once cursed her. He has shown himself to be, probably in his own words, a gentleman.Even with his arrogance he is deeply concerned for humanity and this clearly comes through. He has his finger on the pulse of what is going on in contrast to what is not being addressed. Liz only offers critiques of characters, Leftist dogma, extremely rude, inappropriate behavior.
It would be a real shame if Liz would end up defining the purpose and atmosphere of this website. Finally, I want to say that I'm also disturbed by Liz's boastings that she some how defeated Sam in her "flame war" against him. On the contrary, Sam won the debate by revealing that the majority of Liz's statements were irrational with very little intellectual content. He simply did the dignified thing by ending the one-sided dialogue. And leaving with the dignity of a gentlemen. I think Kevin that the keepers of the blog should seriously consider the implications of Liz's behavior on this website.
A concerned Christian,
Chris Bedford
Chris: I appreciate your feedback. I have also been concerned with how Liz has conducted herself on this site, and I have mentioned this to her on numerous occasions (not just on this board). Not only does she tend to dominate the discussion with her inordinately long and frequent posts, she also tends to go for the throat in terms of attacking fellow commenters as well as writers, filmmakers, etc. Once again, I have mentioned this to her several times, to no avail. Liz has made it very clear that she is what she is, take it or leave it. No apologies. Although at times I have been very tempted at times to "leave it," I have chosen to let her stay, because I feel that preserving a relationship with her is more important than the risk of having her offend a few Christians along the way. Perhaps I have gone too far in terms of accomodating her. This is something I still wonder about. However, I have found that passionate people like Liz respond better to a gentle rebuke than a firm hand.
In terms of Liz's flame war with Sam, yes, I should have stayed more on top of it, but the majority of it happened while I was on vacation, and I was simply not able to get involved. As for who won that "debate," I think it's obvious to one and all which person conducted himself with the most dignity and respect, which to me is far more important than a mere intellectual victory. (BTW: I say all of this knowing full well that Liz will probably read it.) However, just as the reviews on this site represent the views of the authors and not the web site as a whole, the views of all commenters are their own as well. Therefore, I think it is a mistake for anyone to allow the comments of someone like Liz to define the purpose and atmosphere of this web site, except perhaps to conclude that no matter who you are or where you come from, you are welcome here. That doesn't mean we won't call you on your issues, but we aren't going to shut you out just because you don't conform to a particular code of conduct. My hope is that through this interaction, people like Liz will come to see that values like charity, respect, and generosity are just as important as whether or not you are right or wrong about a certain topic. Talent is one thing. But unless it is accompanied by solid character, it amounts to very little in the end.
Hello Kevin and Chris,
I thank you for your honest appraisals of my efforts at discussion. I sincerely came to this blog with the idea of having an honest, intellectual discussion. I hoped not just to learn about the opinions of others but to gain some new knowledge that could temper my perspective and add to my personal growth. I was not interested into getting into what was referred to as a "flame war."
I thank you both for acknowledging my effort to be a "gentleman." There is always room for improvement and self-improvement is something that I should diligently continue to pursue. I saw no need to descend into the type of behavior represented by obscenities, name-calling, and accusations that I was subjected to. I think this is the type of brutish behavior that has become too often the norm in the human condition.
It has been my experience that people who behave in this manner are overwhelmed by their emotions, frustrations, voluntarily let themselves be carried away by their impulses, and it reveals a reaction rather than a well thought out perspective.
It is my hope that she will eventually obtain some form of self-affirmation that will manifest in a more healthy, constructive manner. I don't think it serves the medium of intellectual discussion if people are intimidated from giving their varying opinions on issues at this website. A person should be able to express themselves without being subject to obscenities.
Kevin, I appreciate the fact that to be able to discuss opinions/issues on this website; particularly on this blog is a privilege. I choose to respect that privilege as by doing so I'm expressing my respect for myself, you, and others who involve themselves in a discussion. This is an expression of the higher aspirations of being an intellectual, a gentleman, a lady, and a socially responsible human being regardlless of one's religious or philosophical affinities.
A discussion should have an intellectual content that is thought-provoking, informative, and empowering. I will not abuse that privilege by the use of obscenities or arbitrary name-calling. I think that this would be beneath the human potential that we all embody. And as you know very well I'm interested in the best and brightest in all people and how to go about bringing it forth.
Sincerely,
Sam Ewing
P.S.: Again Kevin and Chris, thank you for your sentiments. We don't have to agree with each other 100%, but at least we can respect each other.
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