Sunday, July 25, 2004

Fahrenheit 9/11

LINKS
—Overview
—HJ Roundtable Discussion
—Trailers, Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections


Click to enlargeI arrived at the theatre at 7:22 p.m. Fahrenheit 9/11 was scheduled to start at 7:30. The film was showing on two screens that night, one of which, I discovered, was already sold out. When I got inside, I realized I should have come earlier. Way earlier. The place was packed. It was all I could do to find a seat.

During the previews, I looked around the theatre and marveled at the crowd. This was a Saturday night, in Canada. By all accounts, we should have been out drinking beer and participating in some sort of hockey-related event. But we were all here to watch a documentary. About the United States, no less. On a Saturday night. Perhaps what Michael Moore said during his Oscar acceptance speech for Bowling for Columbine was true, I thought. Perhaps we really do prefer non-fiction to fiction. The question remained, however: In which category did this film fall?

That question was answered for me over the next two hours as I watched what could best be described as an exercise in fear mongering of the worst kind. Even though this film won the Palme d’Or in Cannes, I have to say that, as a documentary, Fahrenheit 9/11 is not particularly good. As a purportedly non-fiction film, it scores even worse. And as entertainment? Let’s just say it’s no Bowling for Columbine.

Click to enlargeWithout going into too much tiresome detail, and at the risk of piling up a small mountain of adjectives, my summary of Fahrenheit 9/11 goes something like this: unfocused, snide, contradictory, paranoid, emotionally manipulative, exploitive, and, at some points, outright delusional. By now, we all expect a certain amount of chutzpah from Moore. That’s what I love about him. He never fails to see the humorous side of the serious issues he explores. He’s a master at mixing information with entertainment, and he isn’t afraid to go out on a limb to stir up controversy and discussion. But this time, I fear the limb may have snapped. Rather than tackle a serious issue in a semi-serious way, as he did with Bowling for Columbine and Roger and Me, Moore attempts to place George W. Bush at the center of the biggest boondoggle of all time. For two painstaking hours, Moore does his best to convince us that Bush is some kind of Manchurian Candidate planted in the White House to serve the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And Moore has all the funny looks and scary music to prove it!

While I am not a big fan of George Bush’s administration or the war in Iraq, Moore lays things on a little too thick in Fahrenheit 9/11, even for an avowed fan like me. For example, at one point Moore asks us to believe that “Big Tobacco� pressured the Department of Homeland Security to allow matches and cigarette lighters onboard commercial flights so that smokers could light up immediately upon landing, even though such items could be used to ignite bombs like the one convicted terrorist Richard Reid hid in his shoes. Or how about this: After outlining the admittedly extensive connections between the Bushes, the Bin Ladens, and the Saudi royal family, Moore asks something along the lines of: “If someone is paying you $400,000 per year to lead their country but, over the years, the Saudis have paid your family $1.4 billion, when you wake up in the morning, who are you going to worry most about pleasing: The Saudis or the American people?� Moore’s premise here is that the only thing that motivates George W. Bush is money. However, as I listened to Moore draw this conclusion, I began to wonder who was more concerned about making money off the Saudi-Bush connection: George W. or Michael M.? As with any blame game, it isn’t long before the finger you are pointing at others turns around and starts pointing back at you.

Refreshingly, Fahrenheit 9/11 does include a couple of Moore’s trademark publicity stunts, such as when he rides around the Capitol building in an ice cream truck while reading the Patriot Act over a loudspeaker or when he approaches congressmen on the street and asks them to enlist their children to serve in Iraq. Once again, if Moore had resorted to more of these antics instead of using a conspiracy theory approach, the opinions he expresses in this film would have been much easier to swallow, because it would be obvious that he considers them just that: opinions. Instead, he presents his opinions as facts, and he expects us to embrace them as such. I’m sorry, but in this age of 24-hour news and the Internet; such obvious propagandizing just doesn’t cut it.

That’s not to say Fahrenheit 9/11 does not have its moments. The footage of young American soldiers talking about the type of music they like to listen to as they blow up Iraqi neighborhoods with their tanks is one of the most chilling things I have ever seen. War as a video game come to life. Thankfully, Moore balanced these interviews with the accounts of soldiers for whom killing had become a face-to-face affair. Their disturbing version of the conflict led me to believe that the pimple-faced push-button killers in the tanks had yet to encounter the victims of their carnage firsthand. Taken together, their testimonies, as well as Moore’s coverage of grieving mothers on both sides of the conflict, present a grim picture of modern war and its effect on us—equal parts desensitization and soul-rending tragedy. If Moore had only stuck with something along these lines, I think this film really would have amounted to something.

Recently, I expressed my doubts that Fahrenheit 9/11 would change anyone’s mind about George Bush or Michael Moore. Having been pre-conditioned by the media to hate one or the other, I proposed that viewing the film would only solidify people’s preconceptions, because most would go into the theatre looking to confirm their particular point of view rather than challenge it. However, in my case at least, viewing the film had exactly the opposite effect. I went in a Michael Moore fan. And while I didn’t emerge as a convert to the George W. gospel, I definitely lost a lot of respect for Moore and his ability to play fair with the facts. I also have serious doubts about his preference for non-fiction over fiction. His film may feature real people and real events, but you don’t have to dig too deep to realize the yarn he attempts to weave out of this mish-mash of footage and fallacies is anything but the truth.

At the same time, I cannot dispute that Moore has tapped into at least one fundamental truth: People are outraged with a political system that strives to keep them ignorant and powerless. They are tired of an administration that withholds information from the very people who elected it, one that uses fear to manipulate them into sanctioning its agenda, for good or for evil. People want the truth; they demand it. Sadly, however, truth appears to be in short supply these days. We live in an age of inquiries and commissions, conspiracies and suspicion. As an auto mechanic featured in this film says, “You should never trust anyone you don’t know. In fact, you probably shouldn’t even trust the people you do know.�

Many people hoped to find the truth in Fahrenheit 9/11. An astounding number, actually. Even though the film opened on less than a quarter of the screens of its closest rival, it still topped the weekend box office. Unfortunately, while people may believe they have found the truth in Fahrenheit 9/11—people actually applauded the film where I viewed it—I fear they may have unwittingly bought into the very thing Moore’s film purportedly condemns: Fear packaged as truth in order to sway them in a particular direction. This time, however, they weren’t taught to fear Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or a host of nameless, faceless Middle Eastern terrorists. They were taught to fear George Bush, the American government, their neighbors—even themselves. Jesus said, “the truth will set you free.� In this case, however, Moore’s “truth� doesn’t offer freedom. All it provides is a different type of bondage.

LINKS
—Overview
—HJ Roundtable Discussion
—Trailers, Photos
—About this Film
—Spiritual Connections

27 Comments:

Liz the Brit said...

Oh, Kevvie, Kevvie Kevvie...

I don't agree here! I must say!

Yeah, it might be true that Michael Moore was getting a bit "heavier" in this movie - which I definitely took the trouble to see at the cinema, drove miles specially to see it - it certainly isn't as "entertaining" as "Bowling for Columbine", which, however, various other people just as rabidly criticised - especially journalists living in the same area of Colorado! They just don't like it when someone lifts the lid on their community...

But I thought that Mike progressed here, from "gonzo journalism", a la Hunter S Thompson, who you also say you like...

To something FAR more serious and even "Marxist" in import.

Though it didn't go as far as to criticising the bases of the capitalist system as Marx would have liked - of course - apart from underlining how heavily and inexorably they are linked with war. And international corruption. And governments run by evil businessmen (usually behind the scenes - the interesting thing is, that when the Bushes, both of them, got into power, WELL, the elite finally "surfaced", as it were... Whereas usually they manoeuvre into the position, kind of "fall guys", slight outsiders, like Reagan, you know, so it doesn't matter so much when those get assassinated/shot at... Capiche??)

But when Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. got into power, it was like as if J P Morgan had been elected president!!

The only reason they GET AWAY with it is because of their "down-home" Texas accents!

In America, to be elected, (This has applied for years now! Probably since Kennedy - yes, HE was the watershed, I think... And look what happened to him!) you generally have to APPEAR to be a "peasant", basically, a "man of the people". (Usually of course, a Southerner, not from the "sophisticated" North.) Hence Jimmy Carter, hence the "Texan" Bushes... Hence Clinton, of course, so often described as a "Bubba"!

Whereas, in Britain, it is still THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Neil Kinnock (Labour party leader) was NOT elected by the people to the rank of Prime Minister BECAUSE he was perceived as working-class and "rural" - ethnic, ie not Anglo-Saxon, indeed - the "Welsh windbag" the papers all called him.

(He had red hair - which is the SURE mark of a Celt over here - which, by the way, is the reason so many make fun of those with red hair over in Britain. Ie, because redheads are NOT Norman/Anglo-Saxon. Class and race, as ever.)

(Lloyd George was a solicitor as well as Welsh, so he got away with the latter!)

Kinnock they said had never held "a proper" - viz. a middle-class - job.

(It's not that I think HE would have proved Britain's saviour, but!!)

TONY BLAIR, on the other hand, went to a "public", read private, school, Fettes College, which I recently read was probably one of the most reactionary, still-imperialist British public schools, even back in the liberal 60s/70s!

AND HE MADE IT TO PRIME MINISTER!!

He was manouevred into top position, of course.

And then the Brits elected him! Well - unless we wanted the Tories, we had no choice!!

By the way, I think it is indeed possible, that Blair's predecessor as Labour leader, the far more left-wing Scotsman (a real Scotsman this time!), John Smith, was bumped off!

Yes really! I'm not saying absolutely, just within the bounds of possibility. He was a bit of a tub, and he had had heart problems, but he overcame those, and got all fit again... (Smith had a lovely complexion, by the way, which is one of the ways you can tell healthiness...) And then, not quite two years into the Labour leadership, he suddenly dies.

How convenient! For some.

I think it was the CIA.

They obviously wanted Blair (the Bilderberger! Yes!!).

And he did PRECISELY what they wished of him, and hehas been Bush's patsy and poodle ever since.

Just as it was planned!

I am a CONFIRMED conspiracy theorist! I would like to make a film about all the above!!

(But of course, I didn't believe all this, as recently as back in 1997, 98 - I was still naive enough to believe that we the public have real choices on hand, in our politicians!

WE DO NOT!! IT IS ALL A FIX!! Ie, the democratic system is SCREWED! Viva La Revolution!!)


I don't know what all this fuss you are making about "Fahrenheit 9/11" is, because the fact is, the movie was not THAT controversial - it didn't say much that was THAT new, to the "initiated" - as OTHER critics did say of it!!

So he "got it" from both sides!

But I don't know what you're going on about, saying he's making up loads of rubbish (garbage - Wrong Trousers - pants - whatever you want to call it!!) Because, as everybody knows, Moore knew he'd have trouble over this, he knew he even might get sued, so he HIRED a bunch of fact-checkers and Democratic party lawyers and Gaia only knows what else!

So that people couldn't DEMOLISH him on such counts!

He was so careful, Kevin! He took such trouble!

I moot to you, that you didn't LIKE this movie, largely because you didn't LIKE, couldn't cope with, the picture of the world it presented!!

(MY "conspiracy" movie would be MUCH more controversial, because I would mention everything I've just said above, and include also the contention that the CIA was responsible for the "failed Communist coup" in Russia in 1990, I think it was, and for getting rid of Gorby, my hero, and giving the Russians the drunkard Yeltsin, for a while, who let the country go to the dogs and the criminals (how about a Russian Batman! I'd love to see how he sorts out those bloody bastards... and for THAT, I WOULD "authorise" a violent Batman - not just against any little mafia soldier, though, but violence against the real corrupt tops... I WONDER IF SOME RUSSIAN COMICS SCRIPTERS HAVE HAD THE IDEA... I WONDER IF DC WOULD TRY TO "STOP" THEM - GOOD LUCK! YOU CAN'T OVER THERE!!! No such thing as intellectual copyright in those places!)

And NOW, finally, to the crypto-fascist, ex-KGB man, Putin, with his cold serial-killer eyes...

God how DISGUSTED I am with it all!!!

I pray to Gaia the Great Mother to give all these evil, macho, conscienceless, fascist and useless men all the ruin they so richly deserve...)

MY movie would accuse the CIA of everything that has gone wrong in the history of the modern world!!!

I hope that hasn't made you HATE me, Kevin!

But the trouble is.... Well, I think middle-class people (nice ones like you, Kevin) have a tendency to KID themselves these days, that the world is run on more civilized lines than it is - and it's NOT. It never has been!

But it might have got worse again, in the last few decades. Society has, so I think it must have. The "hidden leadership" has gotten worse.

Uhuh.


And I never used to think that classical Marxists, ie Trotskyists and so on, were much INTO conspiracy theories, because they, I thought, might dismiss them as "unscientific", and just harp on the "broad socio-economic forces" that have shaped mankind's destiny over the ages....

But, in recent years, well, the World Socialist Web Site.... Now THEY don't think that the events of 9/11 were "all they seemed", as they were presented to us on TV screens, by Faux News - or even the BBC, for that matter!

There are OTHER stories, in the mainstream media too, but more deeply hidden, that point to a DIFFERENT interpretation to: "Osama dun it and he caught the US COMPLETELY by surprise"....

See what the (usually staid though hard-hitting) WSWS have to say on this theme...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/faa-f11.shtml

"US air traffic authority had multiple Bin Laden hijack warnings before 9/11"

There!! That article was written in Feb this year.

And on the bottom of the article, are all the links to wsws.org's four-part series, about What the September 11 commission hearing revealed, and at the bottom of THAT... oh I'd better GIVE you the link, because I found these particular articles in 2002, and they're what got me hooked on WSWS...

www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml

That's part One of another four-parter! They're good at those!!

But what really GOT me, were the revelations (in part two of the above) that there was MASSIVE stock market trading in the week before the attack - IN THE STOCK PRICES OF THE AIRLINES INVOLVED!!

Bloody Nora!! (As we Brits would say!)

Course, nobody (except a FEW) know the identity of those who placed the bets - the "put" options!!

NOW tell me there wasn't a conspiracy!!

Oh, and even if Osama's "mates" placed most of the bets - the CIA would have KNOWN about it - and could have drawn conclusions - because it's got a software system called PROMIS which keeps tabs on all of this for them!!


To MY recollection, Moore does not even TOUCH on these more controversial themes! (Though I think he mentions some of them in his books.)

That the authorities knew about it all before, of course...

He just states the obvious, to those who've at all scratched the surface: that the Bush family are largely funded by the Saudi Bin Ladens!! And other Saudis.

An economist journalist and guru type, who writes articles that get published on things like alternet and truthout.org, a guy that works largely for the Democratic party in America, says as much! Stirling Newberry! He's an internet and strategy consultant, and a longstanding advisor to Democratic political campaigns!

Look! Here's his article!

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/040305A.shtml

Oh yeah; and he told me in an e-mail that the REASON the rich were getting all the tax cuts - despite the lack of popular appeal of this - was - GET THIS - because if you DIDN'T enrich the elite of the US that way - the elite of Saudi Arabia, who are building up all the cash, because they're a monarchy with no taxes on the rich, basically - WOULD COME OVER TO NORTH AMERICA AND TAKE OVER!!! With their wealth. And the Bushes don't want that; they want their money, but they DON'T want "their" elite, "my base, the haves and the have-mores", just like in Moore's movie - to be ousted, and for Saudis to take over white America!!

Basically! He told me that!

I was knocked for six!

It all started to DAWN on me, even more than it ever did!

I don't know if the WSWS would agree with that little bit - but it impressed me!

Well, anyway, that's the most blunt and ordinary way I can think of explaining it - as I usually do explain things! I like things to crystallize into small words, in my mind - that way, I can be sure of passing them on to my friends - and the masses!

(If I ever get a chance to talk to the masses!)

And only Clinton had a differing economic solution to this - which is, I see now, basically why SOME Democrats acclaim him a fiscal genius. (Well, compared to Dubya he was!)

Capital all over the world is incestually interlinked. Marx said as much! (And I don't mean Groucho!)

(NOW you know what I bloody do all day, my mate!!)


Oh yeah. And if you don't like the 9/11 result (by the way, I got a statistic on that, from Michael Moore's website - it WAS, something like 80% who went to see it were Democrats, and only 20% Republicans (think I've got it right!), and of the 20% Republicans... Well, let's say that very few of them who came out of that theatre wanted to vote for Bush any more!!)

Think if there was a Christian movie that had that effect! If 20% (of MILLIONS) who went to see it were non-Christians; and if it converted 95% of them to Jesus!!

But of course the MAJORITY going to see a movie like that - like Passion of the Christ, I suppose - will always be Christians in the first place, won't they?

Which is WHY Moore's movie can't just win an election on its own - not with that sad-faced Kerry it couldn't, anyway!!


Yeah. But I've got another cheeky notion. So you don't like Mike's work in this regard, Kevin?

OK! Let Michael Moore go over to comic books; and let him write a few of those, then. (I'd love to see what HE could cook up, for DC!! Canadian Bacon would only be the start of it...)

And let the OTHER Moore, ALAN Moore, go and try and do a serious political film...

And let's see what a ham fist HE makes out of it!!

Heh heh!


Oh yeah, and I think Bush is an alien!

(Not!)

7:19 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

Just had (to have!) a look at the HJ Roundtable on this one, Kevin!

Hmm! Interesting! Tells me more about some of your regular contributors than it tells me about Moore, though!

Going to (quite briefly) discuss sth. you said there in a mo.

Firstly though: You said in your main review: "For two painstaking hours, Moore does his best to convince us that Bush is some kind of Manchurian Candidate planted in the White House to serve the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia".

Well not really, Kevin... That's a bit of a simplification! Michael Moore is REALLY saying, that Bush is some kind of stooge for International Capital and indeed Global Capitalism... For a SYSTEM... NOT just "one family"...

He can't go on and on about it, to that level of detail and argument, because then people will just accuse him of being a Commie! Which he isn't, anyway, really, because he's not a Marxist! Not the fully-signed up kind, like I'm not.

(Anyway, bet he thinks most Americans are too dumb/naive to understand the whole of that argument! He's a shrewd customer...)

For the bit about where Saudi Arabia comes into it, I can ONLY recommend, like I said just above, that you read the articles of that brilliant spark, Stirling Newberry, who is a fairly new discovery for me, only this year did I find him - and he bowled me over to start with by explaining the economic reasons for the 1987 stock market crash (which no-one had ever done, making any real sense, to me before) and the following recession of the early 90s (which just about wiped out my early professional prospects, by the way! As a journalist! No-one was hiring! NOW maybe you can see why I'm mad, enraged, on a personal level - and like Mike, determined to get even!)

(Heh! On a not-too-germane note, but this just will prove to you how much comic books continually run round my brain, the "other" Moore's, Alan's, Joker, says, if I remember aright - well I know I do - in that otherwise disgusting tome, "Killing Joke", "Don't get even - Just get Mad!"

Hur hur! Well, we'll SEE, my sunshines, is all I have to say to that one!!)

(Being both wouldn't be too bad! Should be possible to do both! My own personal purple fiend says so!!! Well a witch has to have familiar spirits... I've had them for a long while! Only I didn't know how to classify them at first!)

When you get economically "bitten", you'll be "shy", too! I predict it!!

Anyway, you'd need to read books like "House of Bush, House of Saud", all the books which informed Moore's documentary, which explain in detail all the links between the two (Well, actually more) families, which do exist.

They're like a bloomin' Mafia, is what they are!!

Come on. Go to Michael's site, and look up what I've just told you - those books he based his ideas on. www.michaelmoore.com. Bet you've never been, and it's only a mouse click away!!

Look up, too, his list of the facts and arguments presented in "Fahrenheit". See how many of them he says he can prove check out... Look at the arguments on that section of the site and see whether you believe them or not!

At least his site has a search engine, unlike, to date, HJ!!

(Which needs one!)

Onto Roundtable:-

Viz. Charlton Heston in "Bowling for Columbine" - I DO WISH people would STOP describing his simple filming of Heston getting uncomfortable with the concluding questions of the interview, and retreating further into the depths of his own extensive property - ie, "running away" on camera, which I have seen SEVERAL interviewees do, including that supposedly tough right-wingish lesbian, Camille Paglia, on British TV!! (She's a right little nutter, BTW!)

Well it's a simple enough shot, and a not-unknown phenomenon among journalists - the quarry legging it, so to speak - so quit describing it as "flimflammery" or "unfair" on Moore's part! HJ participants!!

WHAT's unfair? He just shows unpalatable truths, is all.

And WHAT'S it got to do with "Broadcast News", Greg Wright, if you're around here!!

Kevin said this on the Round table: "Why are we always looking for the hidden agenda? What cultural forces, events, and individuals have brought us to this point? I suspect if you put your ear to the ground above the graves of Marx, Nietschze, and Freud, you would hear them chuckling...."

Yeah, Kevin, why do you think?

If you've personally drawn the short end of the stick - and so many people have, in one way or another, these days, and you KNOW that nothing you could have done would have materially affected the result - you start to look around for WHY - like the ancient tribespeople look for the hostile wizards, spirits, ghosts or gods that are causing them disease and bad luck - and hey presto, you'll soon find some!

Bit more scientifically, these days, because as you say in your review, we have the whole resources of libraries and the Internet at our disposal!!

But the hostile forces and hidden enemies are real.

That's all I can say.

More real than those insubstantial ghosts so feared by our ancestors!

With more power in this, our world, at this our level of material vibration.

But why do you suspect that Marx, Nietsche and Freud, are chuckling over Fahrenheit 9/11?

Why - because you think that they (would) think that M. Moore is bats?

OR, because you think that the above gentlemen were all big troublemakers, like today's supreme ****-stirring documentarist, Michael Moore.

(So they'd approve of him, is what you're saying - yeah?)

Or no?

I've already accused Maurice of sometimes being clear as mud!

Well - that can apply to you, too!

NOW. Shall I tell you what I really, really think - another of my secret insights into culture in general, and, as ever, linked to the archetypes of comic books!

(Only I think the following analogy really WORKS, in Moore's case!)

Michael Moore is the (mythological archetype of the) Mischief-Maker supreme. He is a manifestation of the Divine Fool, for our age. (He also might be the Scape Goat - so he has to watch it and defend himself! As he's been doing. Over 9/11.)

He is sacred to Gaia and does her Will!

As do ALL Divine Fools!

Including my favourite one of comic strips, of the Batman comics, the far less pro-social (but nevertheless, unsettling and thought-provoking) man in purple, the Joker!

(And because he too is of Gaia - and one day I intend to prove it - MEN like Frank Miller should be VERY VERY careful before they dare TOUCH the likes of him!)

That's my mystical, and personal, take on the matter.

I would never have said that anywhere on the net, were it not for you....

Oh YEAH, and I bet that sexist, homophobic twonk (Frank) Miller HATES Michael Moore, and his documentaries, as well! WITH a passion!!

That's beside the point though... (I do tend to digress! My worst literary habit!)

But I SHALL tell you something you do not know and have not yet guessed... Well, it's based on another insight! Shared by a broader group of people...

As soon as Moore's book of polemic, "Stupid White Men" came out - well there were journalists on both sides of the Atlantic, jokingly calling him "the capped crusader"... CAPPED CRUSADER, get it? Because of a) his crusading style, worthy of ANY comic book hero, mate, whoever your favourite one really is, Moore can match him I wot! and b) the baseball cap he always wears!

Well, thought I, that is true! I LONG saw him as a sort of proletarian superhero.

BUT - have these "clever" journalists realised about the OTHER side of that equation, that archetype?

(No, because they don't know comic books well enough, is why!!)

For I have LONG also in my OWN mind, privately dubbed Michael Moore as none other THAN - "The Clown Prince of Agit-Prop!"

ANYONE who has ever even opened a Batman comic (other than one by F. Off Miller) will know that refers to the Joker!!

And DOESN'T it just fit Moore though - as snugly as his "capped crusader" image - to be also, THE CLOWN PRINCE - not of crime, but of AGIT-PROP!

Supreme 20th-21st century propagandist and thereby activist!

Well, as soon as I realised that, I started to smile, and practically to worship Mike.

FOR he doth unify the archetypes of the Joker and the Batman in one and the very same person - which is something I have always - sought - to do!

(Well, I see myself in him. And this TERRIBLE dichotomy/duality, by the way... Of crusader for true morality... And destroyer and Mischief-Maker!!)

THAT is what makes him so delightfully... disturbing.

So, in conclusion, no wonder I am such a slobbering fan, of Michael Moore. Capped Crusader. Clown Prince. (He doesn't even know it HIMSELF, how well all this fits him!)

If you're an archetype, or a couple of them, best you don't realise it, I suppose.

Princess Di did (she acknowleged herself Queen of Hearts - that means Isis, OK?)... And she died, soon afterwards!!

SO. Now you KNOW! For a witch told you it! One who works with metaphors alone!!

And, Kevin, if you have finally got to the end of this... Well, I hope you don't think I've raved on enough, and as I've spent all night tapping away and surfing, now I shall go to bed...

By the way, coming down to earth once more and away from the divine realm of archetypes, whoever on the Round Table said Michael Moore was "so far out left"... Well, only by US standards! He's not a Marxist, you know....

Marxism is generally considered to be the purest "left" you can be. Marxists generally describe Moore as left-liberal.

Well I say he's left-left-liberal!

And he is a minor god sent down here to earth!! To stir things up!!

That's what I think.

That's where WSWS would say: "you're nuts bud" - or sis!!

Actually, they would never use such down-to-earth terms.

They would just ignore, or be lofty and patronising.

As such academic authorities usually are!

But I know better! For I can make my own analyses!

Bye for now!

10:10 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

Oh, and Kevin... DELETE the above if you MUST... but give a chance for a couple of your more broadminded pals, eg Maurice, to read it first, OK?

But delete if it offends you!

Actually I THINK the only person it might worry is Michael Moore himself!

But he's very unlikely to see it!

And therefore is never going to know that someone thinks and has a good theory to say that he is a manifestation of certain archetypes!

11:17 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz,

I won't delete the above comment, even though it is rather long, because this isn't exactly an active review page right now. As for content, I would only delete a comment on those grounds if the content became lewd, suggestive, etc. I would never delete someone purely because he/she disagreed with me.

9:50 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

I've never been to Michael Moore's web site? Liz, for about a year prior to Farenheit 9/11, I visited his web site every day! I was a huge fan of what Michael Moore was doing, of the issues he was raising. In some ways, I still am. But the more I learn about Michael, the less likely I am to take his word for anything. I still sympathize with some of this issues, but I feel he is going about his advocacy in entirely the wrong way--at least in this film. It's just so over the top ridiculous that he absolutely blows his case even before his enemies get to him. I went into the theater expecting to be wowed and came out going, "What happened?" So the review tends to recount that feeling, the feeling of betrayal, the sense of waking up from a dream and realizing I'd been uncritically accepting far too many "facts" from Michael Moore. I still love the guy, would gladly welcome him into my home/have dinner with him. But I will just be a bit more wary.

11:29 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

BTW, Liz: The reason I said "the Masters of Suspicion" would be chuckling, is because they are the ones who started this deconstructionism/revisionist craze. They may be dead, but their ideas live on.

11:31 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

So they did! "The Masters of Suspicion", is what you call all three of Marx, Freud and Nietzsche! That is interesting!

But at least they were deconstructing/revising in the correct direction... (Well, I don't know about Nietzsche - he was a sexist, atheist fascist so far as I can see...)

But if you're going to "revise" anything, I would have thought that yes, one would want to "revise" the iniquities of society, and disabuse it of its illusions, which are usually ones of pride, elite pride (as I think clarion-journal.ca has it down, pretty well!), which are the illusions which create society's misery.

(Ie, lies about the economic foundations of society, sexual repression, lies about gender and race... I think you should have included a couple of feminists and black theorists in your above list! Of Masters of Suspicion! W. E. DuBois, maybe! Germaine Greer? (Though she's not my favourite feminist: I have yet to find a favourite!))

Course they're not nearly as well known as Marx, Freud, Nietzsche.... All white MEN themselves, which yet again, says it ALL, really...

To ME it does!! (Another way in which I depart from the World Socialist Web, because they think that all that counts is theory - which they call "scientific" - and I think that "who and what you are" is inevitably linked with the theories you come up with. As a matter of interest!)

But yeah, at least the above were attempting revisionism in the right direction...

Whereas - you hit me with these words which set off associations, you see, I'm a very associative person - and have a lot of unpleasant associations, in the back of my mind!

Well, you might want to know that Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" was described by some pulp "expert" in print as "comics revisionism".

Yes, I think it WAS! And it was revisionism in the WRONG direction. A Trotskyist comics lover (if there are any!) might describe F.M. as "the Stalin of comics".

I know I would!!! (And a few other choice things besides!)

He took a good idea and corrupted it - probably because he was beaten as a child, or something just as sad and banal!! True!!

You know what I think? (not about comics.) Middle-class (North) America used to like Mike Moore when he was the "Michigan Minstrel", ie, more of an entertainer and a comic than anything else, and only activist in a very humorous way, with his TV shows.

But now that he has surfaced as a man who really wants to change American society in a fundamental way, to bring down a President and oust a government....

THEN he went too far for you all, didn't he??

That was the boundary that he really crossed!

Even though I know you're going to tell me that you don't want Dubya to be in either, well... How do you expect a documentary-maker to make a case against him? With kid gloves? By trying to follow him around Washington with a camera, trying to make a documentary out of THAT? Good luck! (You would need it!)

Docs like "Roger and Me" are very subtle, and make their point in a kind of "let these idiots incriminate themselves by their own pride" way.

(I have watched that movie OVER and OVER again, and am ever amazed at what Moore does NOT say... He only implies... Shows not tells.)

Well we madcap mischief-makers can't stick at the "let's slyly imply everything and never really confront anyone in a nasty way" game for ALL of our lives, you know!!

OUR TRUE FEELINGS HAVE TO COME OUT SOMETIME, in what we write or film!!

And you didn't respond at all to my "archetypal" theories, I note! (Probably think they really are nuts!)

But Kevin - do you think archetypes are only in stories?

Nay! "Archetypes have the drive to manifest", said Carl Gustav Jung.

7:00 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

Oh yes, Kevin, and you still haven't uttered a peep about my main drift above - namely the Michael Moore/Divine Fool/archetypes theory!! Surely out of disgust!!

(I can't help it if I think Michael Moore is a god! Sorry! That's what comes of being a pagan, even an academic one.)

He can NEVER disillusion me, by going too FAR, Kevin, ever, ever!! He could say that George Bush was the Dark Side of the Force, he could say that the world was ruled by Satan in the shape of neoliberal lizards who habitually rigged the World Series... and I would still say to him: "Whatever you say, Mike..." (Though in this last, postulated, case, I would think he might be decompensating! As they do call it!

Sigh! NOW do you see why the Joker, for one, is mad? I mean, what benefit there is to it?

Because such an attitude makes all possible! It is Divine!... Not necessarily TOTAL lunacy... But this willingness to say what no-one else dares, not to such an audience - to put oneself out on a limb. Without seeking "approval" before doing it.)

I have to have my idols!!

(Michael could say the baddest things possible... I would LAP it all up, just like I did with O'Neil's (earlier) Joker...)

The only thing I would ever get fed up with, would be if Mike Moore started to express right-wing, racist, sexist, neoliberal/neocon - or indeed "right-wing appeasist" ideas. (Like Kerry did - much to Mike's barely-suppressed disdain!)

And I know he never will!

(This is a man I have FAITH in! Out of very few!)

The MOST he has ever done to annoy the hard Left, I think, was by having a few good words to say about Karol Wojtyla! On the occasion of his death.

And he was brought up a Catholic.

Really I want him to be US President, but I'd better not say any more about that!

"The more I learn about Michael"... what have you learnt about Michael, anyway, in recent months, Kevin?

Apart from the fact that he has MANY devoted, some maybe a bit barmy, (OK!) fans who love him with the constant devotion that Harley Quinn reserves for the Joker?

(Sorry!!!)

Who ELSE have we got to love, who takes OUR SIDE, represents our position, like THAT??

(You HAVE to be an ARCHETYPE to inspire THAT level of devotion!)

Actually I think the right wing have their own archetypes as well. They have people like Rush Limbaugh, who is rather cartoonish, but who reminds me of nobody from mythology or comics at all - well, you could always try Jabba the Hutt from Star Wars...

And then the American Democrats say: "We need our own Rush Limbaugh..." Well, you got it buds, it's Michael Moore, pity he's a bit of a socialist, eh??

When does Rush Limbaugh ever check his facts? Do his "fans" ever turn on him for that? Do the media? Does anyone - apart from Al Franken? No.

What does anyone ever "find out" about Michael Moore, Kevin, that has any truth or import to it?? Christopher Hitchens, the pseudo-left turncoat? Don't make me laugh! And HJers shouldn't believe his article, either: if you type in the following: Hitchens Moore herbivorous, into Google, you'll come up, not only with his article, but with about half a dozen on the first page which rebut it.

Those Republican chancers who write things called: "Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man"?? Or similar!

DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH!!!!!!


Tell me which facts or assertions of his - NB - make them SIGNIFICANT ones, and part of "Fahrenheit 9/11" if possible - you have so far found to be untrue.

Do that, then we can talk on the subject.

What was so untrue, then?

That Saudi Arabia bankrolls a significant section of the US economy? True. 7% of GDP, I think!!

That "President" George W. Bush sat there for minutes on end, impotently, dumbly reading a book called "My Pet Goat" - playing a part like a bad actor, only question is, which part? What was he supposed to be?

For minutes and minutes after the second plane hit one of the towers??

And he went in there after HE KNEW the first one hit??

Now if anyone is really irresponsible, really nuts...

It's Dub.


And did you check out those wsws.org references, giving FULL coverage of the 9/11 topic, that I posted for you? (Mainly for you!)

ANY of them??

Those made up too are they?

By Commies, I suppose!

By anarchists. Lords of suspicion. By Marx, Freud, Nietzsche and the Joker.

JUST to annoy YOU, Kevin!!

And now I'm going to let you seethe!!

Go and read some Frank Miller!!

See if I care!!

(I was going to be nice to you and gentle, after you were upset by the Lucas "fiasco" - I was for about five minutes on your and Maurice's blogs - but I just can't pass this spat up!!)

4:14 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

BTW. As I have already asserted: I BET Frank Miller SO, SO LOATHES Michael Moore... Almost as much as he probably loathes Joanne Rowling.. Well, probably more.

Joanne Rowling is a woman. He likes some women - as long as they are prostitutes. (Might Ayn Rand count as that, I wryly speculate? Intellectual prostitution, possibly?? Maurice tells me Frank M. admits to having some sort of a yen for Ayn Rand, the right-wing libertarian, "existentialist" she called herself, and basing his character Dwight on some of her ideas.)

Well, Mike Moore is the Left antithesis to Miller's nihilistic Right, is he not??

The commie Joker to Miller's fascist Batman. Putting it VERY simplistically!!!

(Just as well Mike isn't bi, as well, otherwise he would fit the mould that bit too well!! Oh, and he'd have to be thin, and wear those elegant fashion plate clothes that make Mr J look like a cross between an emperor, a bishop and Cruella de Ville!! But of course he does it to mock all worldly authority. Therefore does he take the title "Prince". (Of fools!)

And so is my lovely Mike....

He just doesn't have the aesthetic appeal, that is all! Just as well, think how the press would torment him if he actually had a fashion sense and a showy body - that would give them another stick to beat him with!! Like with MJ!

But Moore WAS brought up in a house full of women... THENCE does he derive his "feminine" side, and his power, I do believe.

But even all the above post is too simplistic; because I've already said that Moore is a manifestation of the superhero, "Batman", archetype as well.

And so he is!!

Everything proves it.

If Frank Miller ever expresses anything negative about Michael, and I hear about it....

If he DARES....

That will seal my determination for ever!!

To somehow, anyhow, make daily spells for Mike for President. (And spells for Frank's demise! Despite the Craft prohibitions against it!)

I think it's time that we were ruled by a fool.

That kind. You know, the kind Jesus was, too.

Not by a Shrub. Not by a rotten, sin-sleaze-worshipping Miller.

Mike for me!

4:49 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz,

Sorry I haven't responded to your comments about archetypes yet. Honestly, I've been buried under a mountain of comments and don't even know where that one is. Help!

I will say this though: I definitely think archetypal characters walk the earth as well as the silver screen. But, as you'll note from Campbell's writings, archetypes weren't necessarily individuals but individual functions. That is, the same person who functioned as a mentor could also function as a trickster and so forth.

11:00 PM  
Liz (Kaspar) the Brit said...

Yes. I don't know enough about CAMPBELL's theory of archetypes; which is why I sometime want to take your course about "The Hero's Journey" - AFTER I have assembled/read all the relevant course books, of course!!

But Campbell was not the ORIGINATOR of archetype theory: it was Carl Gustav Jung, so far as I can see... ACTUALLY I think that all those German writers/collectors/analysts of fairy tales, the brothers Grimm, and maybe even someone like Goethe, had their hand in it...

It was the Germanics, anyway! Of that I am sure!

It was when people started to analyse story and myth.

Yes, tricksters themselves are very complex characters, are they not - and they tend to have OTHER roles as well - like mentor - like "culture hero", like "King", as well...

But anyway, I take most of my ideas of archetypes, from my own readings, of godknowswhat godknowswhen, probably some Jung-based magazine articles, (I've never read a whole book by Jung, yet, that's still on the agenda, though I have some "collected" selections) and what I know about the Tarot, for one thing, and certain lectures I attended on the subject. In Cornwall. We have a Mind/Body/Spirit festival.

(That lady there said, basically, that archetypes = gods, to which I said Yes! Yes! Yes! And she more-or-less predicted that Princess Diana would die young, and that was in 1995. She compared her to Marilyn Monroe/Isis/The Empress tarot card. (The one with Isis on it.)

And she did ALL this - not by READING the Tarot, ie like fortune-telling, but by analysing a few ARCHETYPES that certain Tarot cards represented. She didn't even touch upon the Fool/Trickster, because she said that everyone did him. And I wasn't disappointed at that, because I had already read plenty about same!)

Anyway, I was well impressed! Then, and afterwards.

And I also read a series of science fiction novels in the 1980s, by an author(ess) called Julian May, which basically express many of the same ideas. (I like to get my ideas the easy way whenever I can!)

I forget what they were called now. There were about six of them, and my best friend at the time, a boy, was crazy on them, I think because of their wide-ranging, mind-expanding nature. I thought they went a bit far (I wasn't ready for all that aliens-having-sex bit at the time!! Which is also in it!)

BUT, now that I look back... Crikey they were FAR better than any of Frank Miller, and much more worth the making a movie out of. "Saga of the Exiles", that was it. The people in it are exiled via one-way time machine to the Pleistocene epoch, you see, where they become archetypal heroes and meet... well, you'll have to read it, won't you? She's written some new stuff now too, I see on Amazon. Good to see she's still alive! Must buy some more of her stuff.

(As I said - better than Frank by far!!)

Anyway, I felt I understood this "archetype" thing instinctively the moment I first heard about it.

(Ha! I've lived it, is what, though I dare not elucidate, or you really WILL think I am mad!)

Yeah. There's plenty about Jung if you type "Archetype" into Wikipedia - if you trust that sh*t! I don't like things that I don't know who's behind them... Still, damn thing's free!

Anyway, for ME, although I go for all that Jung stuff, but I like to simplify, and I don't really much care about animus and anima and animi (kidding you about the last one!), although I find his idea of the "shadow" rather useful... (And I have made some observations to myself, about the BEST authors often choosing for a hero/heroine the sex opposite to them, eg: Phil Pullman, Lyra Belacqua, a girl - Joanne Rowling, Harry Potter - a boy! SEE, Jung was right!!)

(The Swiss is my man!! Freud can go hang, compared to him - and HERE, my dears, I most definitely DO differ from David Walsh, who accuses him of having been a fascist! I'll fascist him. Rationalists and their LIMITATIONS!!)

And Miller writes about stupid sexually impaired men all the time, which suggests there really IS something wrong with him!! Anima has he none! (Except for Ayn Rand, and prostitutes - VERY fitting, for the capitalist whore he is!!)

OOH, I'm in a mood today!! (I've just been looking for "feminist critique of Sin City" on Google, and haven't found enough to satisfy me, though I have found a bit! Might post a link on relevant blog.)

For ME, archetypes (which may, and probably DO have to do with evolution, just like Jung said; evolution being the voice of Gaia...)

Archetypes for me are like sets and subsets. I don't know how fundamentally you can distill them, but I don't care!

What I think you get is a basic archetype, or Great Archetype, like, oh, let's say Fool/Trickster - they're slightly different but connected...

And then you find all sorts of different CHARACTER TYPES under that particular rubric...

Eg, you get helpful tricksters, helpless tricksters, shrewd tricksters, Wise Fools (Alan Garner used to write about one of those, and I've forgotten his name!), mischievous tricksters, VERY MALICIOUS tricksters, tricksters who have the seeds of Kingship within them (like Julian May's, who I have just mentioned above, her hero Aiken Drum and so on...)

Mmm. And usually those "subtypes" have a tendency to replicate themselves as well!! (Like for example - don't you tell this to Maurice because I'm going to ask him the same question and see if he knows the answer - and there is only one answer!! WHICH trickster from old-world mythology does the comic-book (not graphic novel - you can chase me with that, as you know!) Joker remind you of?? (Including the Paul Dini comic/cartoon one.)

WHICH one? Which god, from which mythology?

Wish I could write upside-down on this blog!

Come ON, it HAS to be the Norse Loki, DOESN'T it? The Joker has to be a Loki figure in comics, if I ever did see one!! (Which is why he just MIGHT have the capacity to destroy Gotham City, cf. what Wagner thought about Loki!)

We're a destructive fiery lot!

Interestingly ENOUGH, the name "Loki", meaning "fire", is ALSO, I am almost 100% certain ETYMOLOGICALLY related to that of "Lucifer", which means "light", Latin "lux"... And yet the Norsemen would have named their gods BEFORE they came into contact with Christianity... Though you could definitely say that their story of Baldur and the handling of that myth in the Eddas owes something to Christianity.

(NB. The Joker has always, indeed, before I even analyzed him, struck me as a very "fiery" character! All passion, "man of action", I'll-flaming-kill-you, act first and think later, NEVER look before you leap, type of thing! It's what got him into trouble in the first place! Though I BET, I BET I BET, that no child serial killer he was, and no pathetic weakling like Moore paints neither, but an IDEALIST, AN IDEALIST was he, at the first...

(Do you know that idea of "not looking before you leap" is on the relevant Tarot card, too! Bet you don't!)

And, NB. everyone, Maurice if you're reading this, I COULD CARE LESS what someone like Alan Moore says about archetypes - because he is NOT equipped to understand them. I am. Joseph Campbell is too from what I see.

Neil Gaiman - you are a third-rater, same as your mates!

Ergh!!

Anyway, what was I saying... Yes, the Joker is basically a "fire" spirit, one of enLIGHTenment, Lux, lucifer, as I said...

But funnily enough, there seems to be something rather "watery" about him as well!

(Well, cf the dousing he received! Anyway, he entered the factory via water as well, in the original origns; A. Moore is full of sh*t, as I said all along...)

But it expresses itself in other ways!! Vide all these (usually later) stories that feature the Joker and fish or sharks, or some type of fish...

These are symbolic. Basically (besides the yin or water side of his nature) they signify that the Joker's astrological birth sign is Pisces - (I bet you anything) which - ha ha!! Also happens to be my own!

But Alan Moore, in a month of Sundays, will not know this! He will probably say it is Gemini! (No, that's Harvey Dent's!!)

Mr J I will - if no-one else will - regard you with admiration for a long time yet!!!! Soulmate! Archetype buddy!

(I'm not even an astrologer, but I like the Zodiac, I don't care about the skeptic's carpings about it, like we have the Zodiac from 1000s of years ago when the sky looked different - course it did - they've obviously never heard of precession, which astrologers knew for aeons... And I actually believe in astrology, but don't care to use it much or enquire too closely... Some things should stay hidden! And I can relate it to archetypes, so that makes me happy enough!)

By the way, world - IF I find any of this repeated without attribution - or my permission - in any journal blog or publication in EXISTENCE, I shall sue!! They are MY insights and mine alone.

No, tricksters aren't "Satan", but they can be destructive!!! We CAN be very destructive! It's what we're sometimes for! I always instinctively liked Loki, the old sod, and I think that's one of the reasons I am a critic! He was an outsider and a malcontent too.

(I read various books and articles about Loki when I was younger, as well... which greatly influenced me. Interestingly enough: C. S. Lewis, when still a schoolboy genius, was interested in the character too... Then when he became an adult Christian, he became much too GOOD, to let Loki hold sway!!)

You think that my insight here is incorrect, or too limited to "check out"... Well, I've already viewed it this way and that, and it DOES! The Joker being a modern Loki, I mean!

And NOBODY in any comics magazine, eg. Fantagraphics, has ever discussed or published such a notion, because they are much too stupid for one thing, and much too interested in backward ideas of writers like Miller and Moore... don't make me start!

And if anyone READS it here, they can just back off, because I hereby COPYRIGHT it!

It's my critical corner and everybody else can stay the hell out. Except for Kevin and Maurice - but wait till I ask Maurice, Kev!!

Just ONE quick detail as to HOW it further checks out Kevin - again, don't tell your bud yet!! I want to know if his folklore is as hot as he SAYS, ha ha! (Although I admit I wouldn't know all the Jamaican stuff, still I do know some African...)

Right. If you look at Loki in the Norse myths, outcast and rotter that he IS, what advantage does he have that many, indeed most of the other gods lack??

What RELATIONSHIP advantage? Come on!

Answer - heh heh!! A VERY LOVING AND FAITHFUL WIFE... the truest out of all the gods, that dirty lot.. (Actually, she's a human) despite the fact that HE too, like his later comic book counterpart - is, well, let's say not 100% male! (Loki's into shape-shifting, bestiality (if you can call it that), having various babies of his own, you name it!!)

And her NAME IS, Kevin? Her name in the Norse tales?

Come on!!

OK. It's Sigyn. Sigyn = Harley Quinn. It's that simple. (Though the Joker can neither shape-shift, nor bear twelve-legged steeds or wolves - those Norsemen must have been at the magic mushies a bit too much!!)

Their girls love them both!!

And do you think Mr Dini was CONSCIOUSLY aware of this??

I do not!! If he was, he's never yet admitted it! (But he doesn't sound like he's even INTO classical/Northern mythology!)

And yet independently, he came up with the same "pattern" or archetype for a character.

Gaia speaking, my friend!

Which is what tells ME that Mr Dini is blessed by Gaia! (He just doesn't LISTEN to Her enough, or he would have had them MARRY in the comics, though - the first costumed criminal wedding, which I would have gladly bought the comic or video of! NOTHING else will satisfy me, you know... IDEAS must be worked to their LOGICAL conclusion... come hell, come high water.

It is Her Will!!!)

And that Frank Miller is a shmuck!!

Regarding archetypes in the real world: I know people can swap from one to the other. But most of ALL I like those people/characters who CHOOSE; they do CHOOSE one basic archetype, EG. the Fool/Trickster (you've already guessed it's mine, haven't you....) And they STICK TO IT! Their entire lives.

It's not to say that they always stay the same, because the mischievous trickster CAN become the wise king, as I've mentioned above.

And... Oh... I'm all played out... Except to say that a) I'm very pleased that it's ME that's thought of all this b) I'm in more ways, disappointed that I haven't SEEN it, in modern comics!

ALL I FIND THERE IS RUBBISH!!

Anyway, Frank Miller is a political twit. A guy on another journal has said so. He refers to an interview with some guy called Groth, in which Frank Miller says all kinds of ignorant things about 9/11 and the "need for vengeance".

Tw@T. I always knew he was the type. Fascist...

I don't mind, Kevin, you still might think that he's a great talent, you probably do (mind you, Hitler was all talent misapplied, wasn't he - I never said F.M. had NO talent!!)... And you just go ahead and write your appreciative retrospective of DKR.

(But you know what this guy on the anti-Sin-City blog said? He compared Frank to - wait for it - Leni Riefenstahl! Now THAT'S a good one!!)

I KNOW now, that one day Frank will definitely come into open conflict with Mike - and I only pray to Gaia that I shall be waiting as a critic for him, on blogs, and on a MAINSTREAM outlet, when he does!!!!

I'll shred him for going near Mike!!

That brings it to a close. Except to say: I'll buy the Campbell - and from you, too!! Soon.

Oh. My comments about archetypes, as well as about the Joker, which are mainly on this post - but my comments about Moore/archetypes are on the SECOND post down, about half-way through.

And with regard to YOUR Mike Moore post (fifth down), IF you want to say "he got it wrong"! you're going to have to cite CONCRETE examples of this, not just vague "he's into the bondage of conspiracies".

And do NOT cite that Hitchens article! (It was cited on HJ Roundtable) It's TRASH - and the OTHER Miller likes it... you know, the one I DON'T like...

10:40 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

BTW - What ELSE do you think, just as a matter of interest, motivates George W. Bush - apart from money, power, and being a tosser??

What else could it be? Sincere religion? You've got to be kidding me...

"You knew me not"...

11:09 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Actually, Liz, I do think he is motivated by sincere religion--religion that is sincerely wrong.

9:09 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

Oh, that's interesting... Motivated by his own skewed concept of Jesus and Christianity, why not...

Like some of those Crusaders, eh?

I still don't know what they were after in the Middle East all those years ago, though. Not oil, obviously. Conspiracists say it was the secrets of the Temple of Solomon! (Sacred geometry - Gothic architecture, which DOES owe quite a bit to Arab, as well as Germanic, influences - Ark of the Covenant - you name it!)

But - on a prosaic level - was it the riches of the ports there, in Jaffa and all that?? Trading posts, that they desired so much?

Still haven't said a peep at all, about what you think concerning my parallels between certain Batman characters and Norse mythology!

(I think I'm original! You are of course at liberty to think I'm bats!)

And you haven't said if you think I'm right or bats concerning the Joker's star sign!

(Are Christians not allowed to discuss those, then?)

Very big in the Middle East, astrology.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the Fishes was the sign that the Joker was BORN under, when he was actually born into this world (well, that of his own dimension) as .... ......., whoever that was, and I've never yet read a modern story that gives a decent explanation of his ULTIMATE origin...

Or whether it was the Sun sign at the time he changed from the Red Hood to the Joker...

Maybe it was both!

I sometimes really wish I was a proper astrologer.

1:18 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

OK, never mind the Joker, and whether he's a Pisces, or not!

Why, what are you? Do you know/care?

You still haven't really come up with what I was hoping you would... elucidate... Saying much on the suj. seems to be like pulling teeth, but honestly, if there ARE loads of Christian conservatives lurking on this blog, who object to your liberal politics - I haven't seen them!

(You DO realise, you could set me on one or two of them, if they're there - and I wouldn't at all mind being of service!!)

THAT I could do for you!

Anyway, this seems to encapsulate your opinion of "Fahrenheit": - Instead, he presents his opinions as facts, and he expects us to embrace them as such. I’m sorry, but in this age of 24-hour news and the Internet; such obvious propagandizing just doesn’t cut it.

You really SHOULD say which "facts" you found to be "non-facts"!

Even if you can only remember one or two!

For me, it is simple. Bush sucks. He is a Yellow Bastard. (Maybe even Frank Miller thinks so, or at least he might have done before 9/11, which I think puts a right-wing libertarian like that RIGHT into Bush's camp! Which is, heh heh heh... What it was INTENDED to do!!)

4:16 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: I don't know enough about the crusades to know why the christians were so bent on reclaiming Jerusalem. I think it was partially motivated by religion, but mostly motivated by commerce and the need to protect trade routes. But that's just a theory. I'd definitely like to read up on this period of history.

As for your archetype theory, please be patient. Your comments are vast and multi-layered, and I don't want to just whip off a response.

8:57 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: Finally read your theory about the connection between Loki and the Joker. It's an interesting theory indeed. In fact, I think you could write a good paper/book on various fictional villains and show how each one derives its power from the particular archetype he/she represents. I don't know enough about Loki to comment on that particular connection, but your reasoning seems to make sense. And yes, you are correct: From what I've read, you can combine archetypes in a variety of ways, and there are sets and sub-sets of each.

As for some facts that Moore got wrong, you're really stretching my memory now. I thought I listed some in the review. The film "Farenhype 9/11" goes into great detail on some of the distortions, as does the dreaded Hitchens article. I know there are detailed critiques of this film all over the Internet. Same goes for "Bowling..." There's the famous "open a bank account, get a gun" sequence. Moore makes it look like he just went into a bank, signed a few forms, then walked out with a gun when, in reality, there was a gap of several days between each event as the bank did a security check on him. It's not really a lie, but it does fudge things. Same goes for that animated sequence that I mistakenly attributed to South Partk. South Park creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker were royally peeved at that one. That's why they blew Michael up in "Team America." But back to "Farenheit 9/11": Once again, it's not that Moore outright lies in the film. He just stretches, twists, bends, overstates, and offers pointless conjecture, much like he did in "Bowling..." A good example is the segment about "the only state trooper patrolling Oregon's coast" (or something like that). Not only was the state trooper unaware that he was being interviewed for Moore's film (he only found out when friends told him he was in the movie), Moore totally distorted what he said. If you're not aware of the facts, Moore's film seems to make a lot of sense. However, if you are aware of other views, it begins to look more like a comic book version of history--and I'm not using the term "comic book" in a positive way here.

Don't get me wrong: For all his antics, I think Moore is an important voice in America today. We need critics like him - court jesters - to help us see things as they really are. But if all he does is muddy the waters instead of clarify them, I don't think he serves much of a useful purpose.

11:36 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

Oh, Kevin... you just make me go pink with pleasure, when you say things like my comments "are vast and multi-layered"!

Glad you are in favour of my Loki-Joker connection.. I thought it was rather a good one, and I'm not sure when it came to me - sometime last year maybe? Anyway, I was interested in both characters for absolute aeons, and yet it took me that long to make all the connections, and of course that additional one, between Loki and Lucifer...

But no-one's ever done anything like that with comic book criticism, to my knowledge... EXCEPT for one series, late in the 80s or early in the 90s, on BBC I think, called "Greek Fire", which traced the influence of Greek culture on the rest of Western, including the newest Western nation, USA... and it did mention that connection between US comics and ancient Greek mythological superheroes, Hercules, Theseus, Odeysseus etc... physically, especially, I'd say the similarities were obvious! But no-one's yet mentioned Norse mythology/comic books... (With the really obvious exception of Marvel's "Thor" - it is Marvel's, isn't it?? Never read it much: saw the TV cartoon. Loosely based on Norse tales; only loosely I'd say!)

Interesting because I think there's a lot of connection THERE as well... well, just to give teency clue - Greek gods are handsome, whereas Norse ones are more beat-up and "freaky", yeah... Well just look at that contingent over at Gotham C!

There's more; there's the topic of fate, but I'm not giving all my ideas away. You're right, I'd better save them all for my book!!

And - ha ha - I've recently (consciously) though of yet ANOTHER source for the genesis of American superheroes, specifically Superman, which NONE of you will ever have guessed - my own ethnic roots put me in a good position to do so, however - I think I have what might amount to a little insight into Messrs Siegel and Shuster, though let me state to deflect confusion, I'm not - very - Jewish!! (Though I have a big feeling a lot more people are partly Jewish than may think so!) And I think I might let a little of that slip on one of Maurice's comics blogs, by and by, and see if I can startle him with the depth of my cross-cultural knowledge, and the boldness of my theory!! (I have a million others too - I can even tell you some of the - non-Japanese - cultural influences on something like "Spirited Away" - I spotted 'em straight off - and you'll never never guess, either of you, less I tell you...)

New and outlandish theories are very much my preferred stock in trade! I DO love the stuff that stands out! Hence my love for Michael Moore, Gunther Wallraff (heard of him?), this site... you know!

If I DO do a paper, it would be a specialist one, specialising in one or two villains, such as the ones above mentioned. If I did a book, it would of course have to be more general, would take me longer and would demand broader - and less intensive and personal - research. I hope you may help find me a publisher in either and any case. Thank you for the encouragement above all.

(Actually I already have a pile of miscellaneous notes: some on an old computer, which won't now boot up and seems to need data recovery assistance at present; and most of the rest hand-written in faded pencil or runny fibretip and stuffed in a music case,over 2002 and 2003 when I was half-depressed, half-ill and half-something else - that was the time when I had to move out of my main residence because of mice, remember me saying?)

A proportion of it is probably ravings... But you are giving me confidence that at least some of my thinking and obsessive secret scribbling for the last ten years and more may be in some way usable...)

Everything I write here has terrible emotional significance for me, you know! I bite my lip as I write half of this stuff down! It's a witch giving away her Book of Shadows, all right!

But some day, before it is too late, the shadows must come to light.

Hmm. I think I should have divided this into two posts, as you did - only now my Copy key won't work, and so I can't!

OK, hang on please...


Oookay now, here's some web references to all the ANTI-anti-Fahrenheit-9/11 articles there are out there...

There's MORE articles about that (just typing in the Hitchens Moore keywords I recommended earlier!) then there are anti-Michael-Moore articles!

Part of it, is, however, I suspect, because Chris Hitchens attracts just as much opprobrium from the thinking "grassroots" as Michael Moore attracts adulation... (For sound reasons - our instincts are strong!!)

I hate Hitchens. I think he's a pseudo-lefty turncoat - well, HOW can you be a turncoat from a position if you NEVER truly held it??? But Hitchens PRETENDED to, you see, much as Alan Moore pretends to this and that "lefty" position - and he built a reputation on it! As such DO! And THEN, from the reputation of such "trendiness", and a possible left-wing "credibility", he uses it to "pee on it [Michael Moore and his movie] from a great height", as the above article by Chris Parry states. All in the service of his capitalist masters, my dears.

And he gets VERY well paid for it! Much more than Chris Parry or any of his opponents.

Christopher Hitchens makes me fed up - because he, another Brit, though far better advantaged, did what I want(ed) to do - ie, GO to America - somewhere big, somewhere urban - and MAKE a name for myself as a journalist/writer/columnist (I still fancy New York! The REAL Gotham!) - but HOW? Did he do it? (I wouldn't even know how to get the work permit! I tried for one of those lottery US Green Cards in the early 1990s, when I had got my journalism diploma and still a good health. Now I couldn't even go (on any longterm basis, not covered by leisure travel insurance) - because I would have no guarantee that "the land of the free" wouldn't let me die in the street, if I suddenly got a stroke there, for one thing!!!)

Anyway, I'm fed up of pseudo-intellectuals like Hitchens. I could write better than him any day. (But, of course, I wouldn't be satisfying the interests of "the ones with the money"! As my mother used to put it... But then, I don't see what RIGHT or business anyone has to serve the interests of "the ones with the money" - and still get both money AND kudos for being "original" and "left of centre"!! Well some people think H. was, originally.

F"cking Hitchens is having too much his cake and eating it, me thinks. Good job Parry and others are calling him on it.)

Well, anyway, here's the article.

http://www.hollywoodbitchslap.com/feature.php?feature=1150

"Defending Truth: Slate's Chris Hitchens does a hatchet job on Michael Moore", it is called.

It's a really ace article, you know - fact packed, full of details, with a bit of extra scrutiny from a few other people at the end... I really would like to ask the author, Chris Parry, for permission to repost on Hollywoodjesus.com... But let's bide awhile and see if Mr Bruce will let me on the site as reviewer first...

Anyway, FAR better researched than that Hitchens article, the link for which was given in the HJ roundtable! Pah!

Just a little taste, as follows:-

"Hitchens is being intellectually dishonest here on a grand scale. He's pulling the right wing move that we've seen time and again where you manipulate words and scenarios to suit your own needs, and anyone who sees Moore's movie will see, front and center, that this is the case.

And they really will. I mean, good grief, a woman who sat next to me during this film, a respected newspaper writer in this town, cried at what she saw on screen. She cried. Not quietly, not a single tear quickly sucked back in - she cried LOUDLY.

Is this woman merely someone so weak of mind that she could be snowed by some clever editing and emotional background music? Of course not. What she saw were images we're not allowed to see as a matter of course in American life any more. She saw babies covered in burns, missing limbs, being thrown on trucks. She saw US soldiers singing "the roof is on fire" as Baghdad buildings burned behind them. She saw soldiers standing in the desert wondering what the hell they got themselves into, and why.

And she saw a pattern of deception, hubris and elitist manouveuring that saw the western world descend into war for NO REASON other than the profit of a small number of people. She saw lives destroyed so that Halliburton could see their stock rise. She saw parents grieving, caskets returning, and innocent Iraqi civilians calling for our deaths because, heck, after you've flattened someone's home with their family inside, they tend to get a littly pissy.

"However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point."

Excuse me? What did he just say? "Fact-checking is beside the point"?

No sir, fact checking IS the point when you accuse someone of lying. And you, sir, have not proved one single lie here, only a bunch of inferences that exist in your head and nowhere else. Hitchens is saying that F9/11 is an awful movie simply because it doesn't take his perspective on things. He claims lies have been told, but can only find one statement that could even be inferred as untrue - and even that's a stretch. As for the rest, he seems to think if he can smear a little doody on Michael Moore's reputation at the top of the article, he doesn't have to prove it in the bottom. So if you happen to know the New York Times' Judith Miller personally, kindly let her know there's a new hack in town. She's now number two behind Chris "Hatchet" Hitchens, who accuses people of lying but doesn't deliver the evidence.

This Slate article, good people with brains in your heads, is some of the shoddiest 'journalism' I've seen. And it comes to you from a guy who wrote an article not long ago defending Ahmad Chalabi, double agent to the Iranians, fabricator of WMD stories, and wanted bank defrauder, saying "if there has to be a 'Mr. Shiite' in Iraq, I can think of worse candidates than Chalabi."

I can't."


No, neither can I blooming well - and, I would like to say from my own personal movie-watching experience, no tears did I personally witness (this is BRITAIN, remember! We don't wear our hearts on our sleeve like you lot). But the reaction in the theatre I went to, in Truro, Cornwall, was overwhelmingly positive. And people were very shocked/impressed by the Bush footage in particular. Many seemed to have gone to the film in great suspicion of what the US government were up to - but not really sure - but Moore's movie seems to have proved the case, for many people whose reactions I observed - there were quite a few sitting in the rows in front of me, and it was not a very big theatre - though they didn't show it in the smallest screening room!

Well we Cornish were overall, impressed! That was the feeling I gained.

http://www.opednews.com/wade_070404_hitchens.htm

This, above, is however the FUNNIEST rebuttal of the Hitchens crap, by Anthony Wade.. I howled with laughter when I first read it. The above author already knows how much I appreciated his article!

Yeah, it's a great piece!

Also you might try Nick Robinson's mini-review on his weblog: http://protoculturefilms.com/weblog/2004/06/28.html#a83504PM

That gives us the gist in one paragraph, of what I think most honest left-of-centres' view of the movie WAS. I didn't want to quote it verbatim as Mr Robinson, himself a filmmaker it would seem, might mind.

9:48 PM  
Liz the Brit said...

And, as for this "Fahrenhype 9/11" thing... I didn't even know there was one, it wasn't publicized in Britain... Well, anyway, to look at the trailer it looks like it's been put together by some right-wing-group - MoveAmericaForward, perhaps?? Freepers?? Frank Miller and the hungry ghost of Ayn Rand for Patrick Buchananers?? Anyway, what I would call REAL loonies!

(The sort for whom, in a socialist republic, there would be a real Arkham for - and we'd NEVER let them out!! Never never - we've had enough of them, all right!)

"We are fighting snakes and vipers"?? "We can trace Michael Moore through George Soros back to Bin Laden himself"???

Yawn! Gimme a break!

(So you watched this "Fahrenhype", did you? Did you have to buy the DVD?)

I'm sorry, Kevin, but looked at OBJECTIVELY - well, the objective view is that there IS no objective critics' view on "Fahrenheit 9/11", at all!! It ALL depends on where you happen to stand, politically!

That decides the whole and entire tenor of EVERY single review of the piece, blogger or "professional".

There really does seem to be NO middle ground on this one.

Personally, I am however a bit disquieted/disappointed when a few lefties - or semi-lefties - tend to pick over the work of Moore, be it this one or an earlier film, and say something like: "nice try Mike, but not quite", "you got yourself carried away", "you're not REALLY a documentary-maker, ARE you? More a Cinematic Essayist", etc etc...

WHAT's the difference, guys? The (real) left has been arguing anyway, for many years, that there is no such THING as "professional objectivity", because everyone argues instinctively from the basis of their own economic/class interests! That's the basic Marxist argument! And of course, post-modernly, to that you have to add all sorts of psychological musings, Wilhelm Reich and Theodor Adorno-like... About what motivates people BEYOND naked money... But very often it is all money, lying at the back of it...

And of COURSE I know Mike is making money out of this movie... But then, AS he said, REAL success/celebrity came to him pretty late in life, so if he's going to be swung by all that nonsense now - well, he'll be the oldest "swinger" in town, yeah??? (My little joke!)

Now I'm a little bit disappointed by you here, because I KNOW by now, what a good honest sterling chap you are - and a pacifist, too! I can't lay claim to that because I am much too evil and passionate, as I am at GREAT pains to confess to anyone who comes here!

Thing is, though, Kevin... You WERE, as I have noticed long after the fact - of course I was nowhere near this site in July 2004 or I should have said something at the time - but you WERE, indeed, very quick to give Michael Moore a brisk and unhesitating, sound - shall we say spanking - over this??

He got it from you, and how! As did Parker and Stone over their effort.

But - it took you a LOT more effort to be able to bear to criticise, it seems to me and seemed at first, the far less worthily-intentioned work of someone who surely MUST be your opposite on the political spectrum, your demi-namesake, as I already remarked, Mr Frank Miller!!

All HE writes is violent crap, of the most thoughtless kind! I bet there is not ONE non-violent, nor politically SERIOUS piece of work - well, not unless you count prostitutes wearing iron crosses and throwing swastika ninja-stars (manjis) at each other! Hope that doesn't count as serious, or at least is not TAKEN as such by anybody... that our Frank has ever done...

I'm just wondering, what this fascination is, on some basic level of your psyche, with the work of such as him.... why it is so deep, that you find it harder to criticise him than an obvious "good guy" like my icon, Mike!

Yeah, yeah. I shall try not to go on, but you know - the criticisms of "Fahrenheit" that you list, are mainly trivial, and the ones by Hitchens are plain wrong - as the above writers in my previous post explain.

It's just all nit-picking and trying to pick holes in it... But I can find FAR more many holes in DC Comics' graphic novels, than ever they could in a Moore documentary.

And about "Bowling for Columbine" - I found Hitchens' and other's "criticisms" of parts of THAT, even more risible! So, Mike Moore is a heavy, for being so "insensitive" or "cowardly" as to "capture Charlton Heston in the first days of his dementia..."

Really? Is he demented, now?? I never read anything much about it. Well, there's an article on Google about dementia that lists him as having it... But Reagan had it for YEARS, maybe over a decade, before anybody really noticed!

And, IF he was so "senile", how come Heston, not long before that documentary, managed such rousing speeches, to the NRA, after Columbine and after that shooting incident involving two children in Michigan?

Bah! You people have never studied journalism. And it certainly seems that you've never OBSERVED people on investigative journalism programmes - even active consumer programmes, such as some we have in the UK, where the con-man or whoever it is is only too EAGER to run away from the man or woman with the microphone, ONCE he knows that said interviewer is ONTO him and his tricks!

They ALL do it!!

(And it makes good TV, which is why the TV consumer programmes SHOW it, even though they KNOW how predictable the scene always is!! Though I don't think Moore was expecting it, there... Maybe because he was generous enough not to believe Heston to be a Nixon... which is why reviewers have described Moore in this section as looking "bewildered"...)

And this thing about it taking a few days, rather than a few minutes, for him to get the gun as a free gift at the Michigan bank... may be factually correct, but it's TRIVIAL... Time constriction is what happens in most movies anyway, INCLUDING documentaries - otherwise they'd take till next Christmas!

(Anyway, Moore likely has an editor... unlike me, ha ha...)

And AS for Matt Stone and Trey Parker... So, they've laid into Michael themselves, have they?

Boy I'd like to spank them!! Because THEY are just another, infuriating example, of members of the Left liking to turn on their own, rather than saving their energies for pouring all over the Right like molten lava, the way I would!! And do!!

(The left reminds me of Batman villains, esp. in that old Sixties movie where they first appear on the big screen... They, four of the major ones, three blokes and the Catwoman, spend the whole bloody movie bickering with each other; and THAT'S why they haven't a hope in hell of getting the Batman!! Disorganisation, petty rivalry, jealousy, artistic differences and personality clashes!!

One hopes, that seeing as they've all been locked up in Gotham's loony bin together long time since, and hopefully their hardships have taught them a lesson of a POLITICAL kind - that they've found a bit more SOLIDARITY, THAT LOT!! (And boy would I enjoy a comics story exploring that very point! I'd write it meself with pleasure!!)


Anyway - you see how keen and startling my analogies are!!

But anyway - what did Messrs. Stone and Parker do, as a matter of interest? Make Michael have sex with a pet goat, mayhap? Or just "blow him up" in their puppetry, by means of some special effect or other??

They've got no business to be "royally peeved", the little swines... Wait till I send them an e-mail, we'll see how that'll peeve them then! FOR WHAT?? Because Michael as good as gave them a FREE advertisement in "Bowling for Columbine": he respectfully showed one of the more charming clips from their "South Park" shows, and, along with an upbeat interview with the lads, practically held them UP - along with Marilyn Manson it must be said - as SHINING EXAMPLES of creative American youth!!! "These kids, instead of turning their frustrations towards violence, turned them into a CARTOON," beamed Michael with almost paternal pride. [My paraphrase.]

Well, lads... You're lucky for the compliments, let me tell you!

So - WHAT have these two little oicks got to complain about now - that Michael's "American History" cartoon on the same movie, which Maurice greatly praises, you may like to note - that cartoon, I mean - was seemingly inspired by their style??!

(But anyone could SEE, straight OFF, that it was not a "South Park" animation! I could! I knew it was by different animators, because I have the eye, my dears!!)

So, have they never heard of "hommage"??

Does that other juvenile oick, Tarantino, ever get pulled up, vilified or satirised, for ripping off old friggin' kung fu movies??

EARGH!!

"Stretches, twists, bends, overstates, and offers pointless conjecture, much like he did in 'Bowling'"... which won an Oscar, my dear!! Not that that's an AUTOMATIC quality guarantee - but as near as dammit!

If you don't like EITHER of Moore's masterpiece movies, Kevin, what DO you like about the guy's work??

Anyway, he's like ME... he likes to pull things around, caricaturise a bit, and see how things go... We're both a bit exaggerated. It's the price you pay for being born into the archetype of the Clown.

But first you dismiss him, then you call him "an important voice in America today"; then you further dismiss him by referring to him as "court jester", which has some kind of a feudal tone to it... As if Michael were subordinate to some organisation or official power!!

Yeah - he's about as much of a court jester to the American elite, as the Joker is to Gotham City (and its elite)!! Ie, just as DANGEROUS!!

Referring to my original remarks about the comic books and the Norse archetypes - I hope this Joker/Loki burns Gotham City Hall/Valhalla to the ground; to a heap of little cinders....

Then we'll see how much of a court jester we're dealing with!

Yeah, I'm all stoked up again... But don't worry about me, because I'm bringing a little peace token, I hope, to help with that trouble you've been having on that other site.. Just a day or so I need to get the vital phrase... Give me a chance. You'll see.

11:35 PM  
Liz the Brit and knower of archetypes said...

Carrying it on a bit too long, I know... but I like the amazon.com reviews, myself - of FahrenHYPE, I only know the amazon.co.uk ones of Fahrenheit!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000068VAOG/104-3756641-4453540?v=glance

They were quite - interesting!

Personally, I would really feel I had ARRIVED, were I called a "scamp and scalawag" by the media!

Especially if my old therapist/pastoral counsellor could hear! For I know he thought so too! But at that date I hadn't yet let on to the world...

Well, anyway, I would have loved it when I was a few years younger, certainly. Now I am a bit too... jaded and hardship-hardened... to enjoy anything quite so much.

Except for being delighted when I see Michael Moore acting the archetype I so strongly believe him to be! And having people actually SAY what he is, and upbraid him for it... oh, if only they KNEW!

But that's more of an academic pleasure now isn't it... Even if a fierce one!

12:01 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

So, Kevin, your pithy comment to my multilayers?

(I know you won't mind seeing as this one is an old blog!)

So - DID Parker and Stone make their puppet of Moore have sex with a pet goat, then? (There has to be something evil to do with sex, in that movie!)

Just as a matter of interest! I don't know if I can be bothered with their DVD - not if they criticise their fan!

Too much backbiting among the Left!

(And I don't mean these blogs, because they're not snidey.)

And all these "Beavis and Butthead" type things are too misanthropic and crude, anyway.

They certainly don't represent the IDEALISTIC side of youth - which is, considering it, probably why they get sponsored...

So, you will have to tell me, WHICH one of Michael Moore's movies/books, DID you TRULY like, then?

(The first one? "Roger and Me"? Everybody likes Roger and Me, apart from Christopher Hitchens, who has the distinction of making a snidey documentary deriding Mother Theresa and her work...I think I actually saw that on British TV, actually, in the 90s, whereas with Roger and Me, I didn't get to see that, till I bought the DVD!!)

Yes, what a charming bunch of "liberals" we do have, out here in the World...

2:05 AM  
Kevin Miller said...

Liz: The first thing that turned me on to Michael Moore was his breakdown of the election that first put George W. into office. When I read what had gone on in Florida as far as getting African-Americans off the voting list, I was outraged. I went on to read more of that book as well as "Dude, Where's My Country?" most of which, I enjoyed. And, the first couple of times I saw "Bowling for Columbine," I really enjoyed it. Overall, I really like Michael Moore the person. I think he's funny, smart, and hip to what people want. What kind of soured me on his work, however, was the burgeoning body of information that cast doubt on the "facts" he was using. I know you think something like the timing of the bank/gun thing is a small matter. But if you can't be faithful in the small things... How can we trust him with the big things? Right up until I walked into F 9/11, I was pro-Mike all the way. But my respect for him began to melt away quickly as I saw how badly he had blown it. Perhaps some of the negativity in my review stems from that sense of disappointment. Here was his big chance to blow George W. and his cronies sky-high. But instead, I felt like Mike turned it into a freak show of information. He came off as more of a conspiracy nut than someone who was trying to make a serious social statement. As I noted in my review, I didn't think the film was a complete waste of time. But I'm still scratching my head over why what was basically a collection of news clips would win the Palm d' Ore.

I also saw "Roger and Me" last year. It was a strong piece, in my opinion. I wasn't hip to Moore early enough to catch any of "TV Nation" though.

What did Parker and Stone do? They portrayed Moore as a hot-dog guzzling loser. Then they blew him up.

Funny: I just watched "South Park" last night. It's the first time I've actually hung around for an entire episode. My wife and I were laughing out loud. Perhaps we just needed to release some pent-up stress. But I won't deny the fact those guys have a sense of humor. It's just extremely juvenile.

8:33 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

Hmm. I am STILL trying to see what SO disappointed you about Moore's last effort, Kevin.

I like that you liked Mike's expose of the American elections - you read "Stupid White Men", then.

But HOW could one "blow George Bush and his cronies sky-high", on the topic of 9/11 etc, WITHOUT resorting to "a collection of news clips"??

There's no other way of DOING it, you can't follow Bush around town, as I said - his bodyguards would probably shoot you!

You didn't catch TV Nation? I LURVED TV Nation... I thought Mike was Canadian, at first, because I thought "an American can't be a socialist", I didn't have the Net then, and didn't really know about life in the US from the inside, as I do now...

I'm going to get all the videos of TV Nation!

But see, there's ALWAYS something you can PICK at, in a movie, in someone's argument, in their everything... Usually it's SO trivial as to be totally insignificant... Yet small minds find it and they pick! Pick, pick!

(I shall illustrate the technique to you some time, then you will REALLY understand, and that's something you could take a tutorial from me on, believe me!! Once I teach you the right blocking moves - they will NEVER be able to get to you again, my friend!)

Yeah. Like with "Columbine", some embittered local journalist (I don't know with WHAT - maybe the Columbine incident buggered up the region's economy and adversely affected his paper's advertising revenues!).. Well anyway, while I was researching the whole Columbine thing, I came across a couple of articles by him, saying that those two guys, the perps, Dylan and Klebold - "OH they DIDN'T go bowling the morning of the shooting at ALL; Michael Moore was lying/exaggerating to make a better story..."

(As if small newspaper journalists never do that!)

I did e-mail him once or twice, because I was interested in his "alternative theory" that there was a school bullying problem at that high school and others in the area that had gone untreated... Like a bullying ring, like people getting bashed against walls and such.. interesting possibility.

But. The guy was much too embittered anyway. Probably sore that he's not famous.

But I've watched "Bowling for Columbine" many times since, I love to rewatch Michael Moore's films, they mesmerize me...

And IN THE MOVIE, SEVERAL PARTICIPANTS TESTIFY THAT THE PAIR D-I-D GO BOWLING THAT MORNING... And there are news broadcasts of officials saying that as far as they know, that was the last thing they did before the shooting, clips of which appear in the movie.

So what do you go with - what the MAJORITY of people tell you, or some small minority dissenting view that you've never heard of before?? And if you're that minority view, then you diss Moore because you say he wasn't nice to your area, or something??

That feller there said there weren't any mention in the bowling alley's records of Dylan and Klebold renting out a lane that morning, or however it is called.

But if there WERE - what's the betting that the bowling alley, for business and self-preservation reasons, would have deleted the record, or the file from the computer? (Bowling alleys are a family business and don't want to be associated with child murderers.)

Moore didn't get to film inside the ACTUAL alley, did he now?

And so on and so forth...

I've never found ANY criticism of Michael Moore to be at all convincing or important. And I'm sure I don't just say that because I'm besotted!

You see, there's always something that people can MOAN about, when they don't like a guy, because, like Moore, he "pulls the curtain away".

Like with Fahrenheit, they said he made fun of the bereaved mother Lila Lipscomb, who some people on amazon.com, amazon.co.uk and OTHER sites (even a "Christian" site I think, but I couldn't see it properly because I was reading it on my WAP phone at the time!) said was "stupid" or exploited as an example of "a stupid rube". Yes, I heard some pretty heartless comments about Lila.

But she DIDN'T really come over as stupid - FOR THAT AREA, she was an educated woman with a responsible job - and Moore DIDN'T make fun of her; he simply presented things brutally honestly, as he does, understatedly, but without frills...

This is what makes him so MAGNIFICENT... when he's not being a buffoon, (and he makes a GREAT buffoon, as he knows!) he's so spare, so economical... so - unflinching.

And in the end, what he was doing, was NOT cruelty, like Jerry Springer, it was compassion. Lila came over as a heroine in that movie. And Michael's web site is supporting her and the soldiers to this very moment.

(Mike NEVER hurts his own social class! EVER!)

Michael came over as a hero; Lila a heroine - the only ones that came over as STUPID AND NASTY were the ruling class!


"He came off as more of a conspiracy nut", but, KEVIN... even the staid Marxists with their "scientific" this and that, THEY believe that there WAS a conspiracy - as www.wsws.org will tell you!!

The quick spiriting away of the entire Bin Laden family - who CARES on exactly what day the order to do so was approved, or precisely who approved it, the govt. will never tell the truth anyway!!

The uncanny predictive "put options" on the airlines on the stock exchange in the days preceding...

The CIA PROMIS software that would have thrown up this pattern...

The way in which the entire resources of the CIA were MISDIRECTED...

All deliberate!

Everyone who has studied it thinks so!

WHY??

BECAUSE BUSH (or rather Cheney and the neocons and the real brains behind it) WANTED A REICHSTAG FIRE!!

How HARD is that to "get"!

Come ON, Kevin!

Your name, now, I've just looked it up, it means "born handsome"!

But were you ALSO born smart??


Oh, if Parker and Stone had just portrayed Mike guzzling hot dogs, I'm sure he would have laughed - because he KNOWS what his weaknesses are, and he has just as much of a yen (well it must be more, he's American and non-metropolitan by upbringing, after all) for fast food as some of us do - like me, for example.

But how did they come to blow him up, now? Via the hotdog guzzling? (He's not THAT fat, for his height. He's a big guy!)

Or with a plane or missile?

Hmm, wonder what he thought.

So - you actually SAW this "Fahrenhype" movie, did you?

I know what HIS reaction to that would be! An amused sneer of contempt!

12:17 AM  
Liz the Brit said...

Or would you have preferred, Kevin, if Moore had NOT concentrated on the Saudis (ie the "House of Bush/House of Saud" connection, a book he admires and advertises on his web site.... mind you, it IS the most blatant power connection!)

Would you have preferred it if Moore had gone after the Israelis (somehow!) and blamed THEM for stirring up the whole Middle Eastern situation and pushing the US into wars? That IS, after all, what at least one writer on counterpunch.org said... He said Moore was too soft on the Israelis (inference: because some Jews at George Soros' place or in the BBC or somewhere else, I never know where they mean) are helping/funding him.

The International Jewish Conspiracy raises its head again - this time in the mind of leftists! Or people who SAY they are! (Maybe they think that the League of Shadows were responsible! League of Shadows = Protocols of Zion... oh, forget it!)

No: although I think that Moore should NOT be soft on Zionists, he should follow what smells: and what stinks is what is under his nose - ie the links one country's elite has to another's... the ones that are documented, not just theorized about.

So he did the right thing; whether it looks like he's being "anti-Arab" or not. (Oh, well, if he's anti-Arab, why was he also criticised for making the argument that Iraqis were leading more of a normal (even a marginally happy) life before the war? "You're on the side of Saddam!" similar wiseacres said...ah, yawn.)

Yawn. I trust Mike. And Mike alone!

(And in the interests of full disclosure I should disclose that I am PROBABLY, I THINK, about one-thousandth Jewish; because "Rosin" is (originally) a family name, but it wasn't enough for Nazis to hurt my grandad or even to notice it, in Poland.. they wanted to Dachau him for a rather different reason... but again, because of cosmic luck, didn't succeed!)

12:03 PM  
Hey Kevin! said...

Look at this if you will!

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

Food for thought...

5:12 PM  
Kevin Miller said...

Thanks for this. Is this from Liz or someone else?

6:40 PM  
Liz the Anonymous said...

Yeah, that was from me... Why, should I have titled it "anonymous"?? I think I tried to put "liz" as well in the title, but it didn't come out...

7:31 PM  

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